Salvage cars: Tesla permanently disabling SC from supercharger

[ElectricIAC]

They still do this to folks who re-enable supercharging via external means on salvage vehicles. It appears to be a manual process from what I can tell. The superchargers themselves have a somewhat limited connectivity (which is why the majority of the billing and such is actually handled by the car side, interestingly enough)... my guess is that they have to kind of go out of their way to trigger this, and likely can only do so at specific stations.

The last case I know about is a guy with a salvage that had someone else (not me) re-enable supercharging and disconnect from Tesla, and was basically just local supercharging all the time. Eventually they shut him down from the charger side and triggered the disable flag.

On the technical side, this actually doesn't have to be done digitally with a programmed command, per se... I tried blocking this ability with modified firmware, but they basically make the supercharger intentionally fail a particular test the vehicle does for safety that causes the car to believe that the onboard fast charge equipment is faulty and it disables it for safety reasons. And the actual fault detection code is worth keeping for actual safety reasons.

It's actually quite a clever way to get the unconnected car to do what they want without really commanding it to do anything. Might even be more "legal" than reaching in and disabling supercharging on the vehicle itself remotely like they generally do.

IANAL, but I firmly believe Tesla modifying vehicles they do not own to remotely remove functionality without explicit permission from the owner is outright theft, no different than if they physically stole your wheels or similar... but in the few instances I know of where anyone attempted to fight them on this on a legal front they've eventually come to an NDA'd settlement of some kind. Makes me feel pretty confident if it made it to court they would lose big time.

It's also ridiculous that they're opening up the supercharging network to third parties (in Europe so far at least), in which case who knows what they're charging and how safe it is... but still won't let salvage Tesla's with superficial damage, or otherwise completely safe and repaired vehicles, use the superchargers under the guise of a safety concern. Are they saying Tesla's are less safe charging than the competition?!

That’s why if they open up superchargers to outside brands in the US they really need to drop the salvage restrictions.

 

[wk057]

That’s why if they open up superchargers to outside brands in the US they really need to drop the salvage restrictions.

They won't. The restriction directly impacts new car sales in a positive way (as in, a salvage vehicle can never be as functional as a new/clean vehicle because of these policies), so I don't see it happening or ever getting enough negative publicity to influence them to change the policy unless there is some kind of court ruling on it.

 

[ElectricIAC]

They won't. The restriction directly impacts new car sales in a positive way (as in, a salvage vehicle can never be as functional as a new/clean vehicle because of these policies), so I don't see it happening or ever getting enough negative publicity to influence them to change the policy unless there is some kind of court ruling on it.

So let us say they added CCS connectors to superchargers.

Would a salvage Tesla with a CCS adapter be disallowed still? Could be a use case to make or at the very least a potential exploit.

 

[GusMY]

I think my question got lost, if someone could confirm on a salvage Tesla, on the app, does it still list you have SNA?

 

[M0rpH3x]

i do not see it anywhere in the tweet but i wasn't around back then so not sure...
also what defines u as "really abused" per Tesla?
i'm mostly concerned about "perm disabling via command from SC"
is that really possible n un-reversable?
seems like nobody is posting about it since that time... nobody brave to try it or it was just one off case?

The original source I think it was wk057 twitter. I saw that info as well. For what I remember, I think you’re right with the V1/V2 vs V3 distinction.

 

[M0rpH3x]

I think my question got lost, if someone could confirm on a salvage Tesla, on the app, does it still list you have SNA?

My salvage car still lists “Supercharging for life”, even though SC was disabled and I did not re-enable it again. It will also precondition the battery if I navigate to a SC.

 

[henderrj]

They won't. The restriction directly impacts new car sales in a positive way (as in, a salvage vehicle can never be as functional as a new/clean vehicle because of these policies), so I don't see it happening or ever getting enough negative publicity to influence them to change the policy unless there is some kind of court ruling on it.

True but - this is especially egregious because the logic is wrong. The kind of person who will buy a salvage car and the kind of person who will buy a new car are entirely different. They'll sell just as many cars at least, and I believe more. Because more people will have positive things to say about tesla.

If they actually wanted to speed up the transition to sustainable energy use, they definitely would allow all the salvage cars to supercharge. But, it's not about that, it never was. It's all about Elon musk getting to mars. Being able to say he's the first guy to move humanity to a new planet. He wants in the history books.

 

[brainhouston]

The last case I know about is a guy with a salvage that had someone else (not me) re-enable supercharging and disconnect from Tesla, and was basically just local supercharging all the time. Eventually they shut him down from the charger side and triggered the disable flag.

On the technical side, this actually doesn't have to be done digitally with a programmed command, per se... I tried blocking this ability with modified firmware, but they basically make the supercharger intentionally fail a particular test the vehicle does for safety that causes the car to believe that the onboard fast charge equipment is faulty and it disables it for safety reasons. And the actual fault detection code is worth keeping for actual safety reasons.

It's actually quite a clever way to get the unconnected car to do what they want without really commanding it to do anything. Might even be more "legal" than reaching in and disabling supercharging on the vehicle itself remotely like they generally do.

Thanks @wk057 ! Always full of knowledge, i love reading your responses
Curious tho where this disable/error fault is stored if not gw? Charger, BMS?
It makes sense then that this fault test/check might need special software/hardware versions on both car n SC...

 

[stopcrazypp]

True but - this is especially egregious because the logic is wrong. The kind of person who will buy a salvage car and the kind of person who will buy a new car are entirely different. They'll sell just as many cars at least, and I believe more. Because more people will have positive things to say about tesla.

If they actually wanted to speed up the transition to sustainable energy use, they definitely would allow all the salvage cars to supercharge. But, it's not about that, it never was. It's all about Elon musk getting to mars. Being able to say he's the first guy to move humanity to a new planet. He wants in the history books.

Even though the buying group may be different, salvage cars increase the stock of Teslas on the road which would indirectly lower demand for new vehicles (as well as impact value of used vehicles).

I think however Tesla cares more about a population of salvage with unlimited supercharging. Upthread it was mentioned they clamped down especially on ones that use superchargers for local charging. There were older threads that discussed how unlimited supercharging would be unsustainable if people used them for local charging.

 

[henderrj]

Even though the buying group may be different, salvage cars increase the stock of Teslas on the road which would indirectly lower demand for new vehicles (as well as impact value of used vehicles).

I think however Tesla cares more about a population of salvage with unlimited supercharging. Upthread it was mentioned they clamped down especially on ones that use superchargers for local charging. There were older threads that discussed how unlimited supercharging would be unsustainable if people used them for local charging.

I would disagree that it would reduce the number of new vehicle sales. Tesla has no significant percentage of vehicles on the road in america. But no one would know unless Tesla let's loose with the charging.

I agree it's a primary motivation for Tesla to get rid of the vehicles with free supercharging. However, it would be quite easy for them to require the inspection and then charge for supercharging from then on. I think most salvage car owners would be happy to pay the price of charging. But I'm afraid the arrogance at Tesla is way too high to admit that that would be a solution. Frankly I don't think Elon musk wants to have any Tesla that isn't absolutely pristine driving the road. He doesn't want to be thought of in that way. Ego, once again, is the primary motivator. But, all this is just my opinion.

 

[Boeingpilot]

Why is it "just plain wrong"? Tesla has a policy, and they enforce it. Their responsibility to support salvage vehicles ends the second they are declared a total loss by insurance, or the title is branded. (With the exception that they still have to perform applicable recalls on them.)

Tesla is very clear on this policy and it is plainly posted on their web site: Additional Resources | Tesla



And just to make a point here, if you bought a salvage Tesla you're not really a Tesla customer.

With all of that said, I do agree that they should have a process where you can pay to get an physical/HV inspection and if you pass paid Supercharging would be reenabled. (They have an HV inspection process but it is only for enabling you to pay Tesla to perform HV related repairs; it doesn't reenabled Supercharging.)Disagree you’re not a Tesla customer. How is this different than me buying a used Tesla? You mean salvage car buyers don’t buy parts, don’t have service?

Your lack of logic screams Tesla fan boy!

Bottom line for me (and I don’t own a salvage car). Rebuilt titles are there because states recognized that salvage vehicles can be fixed (salvage as a designation only means it was not deemed economically feasible to fix).

If you have FUSC, I would concede you could lose that. I would concede for ‘safety’ Tesla could ask for a HV safety inspection to gain access. But to turn off now and forever a key component of the vehicle, well that makes no sense. Additionally, unless Tesla’s TC for third party vehicles specifically states you may not hook a salvage third party vehicle, the first time a Chevy bolt with a rebuilt title hooks up to a SC (when / if this becomes a reality) they’ve lost any credibility Tesla had.

But please, your strained logic makes no sense whatsoever

 

[ElectricIAC]

Your lack of logic screams Tesla fan boy!

But please, your strained logic makes no sense whatsoever

There is no truth but power.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Additionally, unless Tesla’s TC for third party vehicles specifically states you may not hook a salvage third party vehicle, the first time a Chevy bolt with a rebuilt title hooks up to a SC (when / if this becomes a reality) they’ve lost any credibility Tesla had.

But please, your strained logic makes no sense whatsoever

I don't see how a salvage Bolt connecting to a SC via CCS is going to make any difference to Tesla's ban on salvage Teslas connected via supercharger protocol (even putting aside the practicality of if Tesla is able to detect third party cars as salvage). It'll be a third party car using a third party protocol so the PR impact is going to be much less than directly a Tesla car catching on fire while at a SC. The federal government is funding the connectors also, so Tesla is less likely to be able to do salvage exclusion to the same extent.

The only hope is if the CCS connectors don't do autodetect of protocols and then presuming salvage Teslas don't have all DC charging disabled (there is still some dispute over this, even though so far it appears CHAdeMO still works) one using a CCS adapter might be able to charge using that connector. However, if it functions like CCS2, then Tesla will be doing auto detect and it'll default to supercharging protocol, which may keep the ban alive.

 

[thefrog1394]

I think however Tesla cares more about a population of salvage with unlimited supercharging. Upthread it was mentioned they clamped down especially on ones that use superchargers for local charging. There were older threads that discussed how unlimited supercharging would be unsustainable if people used them for local charging.

Complete speculation, but my guess is that this policy originally started because of safety. In the early days, fast charging was unproven tech and a single fire, salvage or not, would make headline news and jeopardize the company.

Fast forward a few years and the safety risks of EVs are far more understood. A poorly repaired salvage Tesla catching fire at a Supercharger would barely even make the news. Far more pressing is the issue of full superchargers. And the type of person who buys a 10 year old salvage Tesla is exactly the type of person who would drive up to their local Supercharger and sit there for an hour+ every week to save $10 in electricity costs at home. These old cars with unlimited supercharging are a strain on the Supercharger network because they charge slowly and don't respond to demand pricing. It's a problem that will solve itself as these cars get old and are crashed. But free supercharging carrying over to salvage titled vehicles would inflate their value and keep them on the road for longer.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Complete speculation, but my guess is that this policy originally started because of safety. In the early days, fast charging was unproven tech and a single fire, salvage or not, would make headline news and jeopardize the company.

Fast forward a few years and the safety risks of EVs are far more understood. A poorly repaired salvage Tesla catching fire at a Supercharger would barely even make the news. Far more pressing is the issue of full superchargers. And the type of person who buys a 10 year old salvage Tesla is exactly the type of person who would drive up to their local Supercharger and sit there for an hour+ every week to save $10 in electricity costs at home. These old cars with unlimited supercharging are a strain on the Supercharger network because they charge slowly and don't respond to demand pricing. It's a problem that will solve itself as these cars get old and are crashed. But free supercharging carrying over to salvage titled vehicles would inflate their value and keep them on the road for longer.

To hell with sustainability.

 

[stopcrazypp]

To hell with sustainability.

I don't think this policy changes sustainability, there are still plenty of people that would be able to utilize such salvage Teslas even without any DC charging (although currently it appears CHAdeMO still works). The cars just will be worth less money due to no supercharger access.

 

[brainhouston]

And the type of person who buys a 10 year old salvage Tesla is exactly the type of person who would drive up to their local Supercharger and sit there for an hour+ every week to save $10 in electricity costs at home. These old cars with unlimited supercharging are a strain on the Supercharger network because they charge slowly and don't respond to demand pricing. It's a problem that will solve itself as these cars get old and are crashed. But free supercharging carrying over to salvage titled vehicles would inflate their value and keep them on the road for longer.

im curious how many salvage cars actually have FUSC or how many out of all cars those years have it...
i got 2016 MX n it doesn't have it
was it just an option back then or every car had it?

 

[jrr6415sun]

Complete speculation, but my guess is that this policy originally started because of safety. In the early days, fast charging was unproven tech and a single fire, salvage or not, would make headline news and jeopardize the company.

Fast forward a few years and the safety risks of EVs are far more understood. A poorly repaired salvage Tesla catching fire at a Supercharger would barely even make the news. Far more pressing is the issue of full superchargers. And the type of person who buys a 10 year old salvage Tesla is exactly the type of person who would drive up to their local Supercharger and sit there for an hour+ every week to save $10 in electricity costs at home. These old cars with unlimited supercharging are a strain on the Supercharger network because they charge slowly and don't respond to demand pricing. It's a problem that will solve itself as these cars get old and are crashed. But free supercharging carrying over to salvage titled vehicles would inflate their value and keep them on the road for longer.

I don’t really think there are that many unlimited charging cars that it strains the network that much, especially with all the new chargers being added every month

 

[ElectricIAC]

I don’t really think there are that many unlimited charging cars that it strains the network that much, especially with all the new chargers being added every month

Uber drivers putting more stress on the network than FUSC cars.

 

[brainhouston]

I think however Tesla cares more about a population of salvage with unlimited supercharging. Upthread it was mentioned they clamped down especially on ones that use superchargers for local charging. There were older threads that discussed how unlimited supercharging would be unsustainable if people used them for local charging.

it is possible, maybe for the reason that Tesla thinks they got a car much cheaper n still use their awesome charging service for free vs original buyer that kinda like "prepaid for that feature" with expensive price of the car but its still flawed logic cause every time that car is sold used, its costing less so i don't see how its different from salvage...
Also i don't see the local aspect either, if u have clean title car with FUSC n do local SC all the time, Tesla can't do anything about it...

More likely is Tesla just wants to discourage ppl from buying wrecked cars to increase sales of new ones, since thats a lot more income vs SCs, and easiest way for them is to disable SC since thats the biggest deal for EV. However it also makes no sense since the reason ppl go for salvage is cause they can't afford new/used in the first place lol
Don't think anyone just chooses salvage for the fun of it (except me maybe )