Salvage cars: Tesla permanently disabling SC from supercharger

[beatle]

Pumping 500A+ of current into it is very different from simply working on the car. As mentioned, the HV inspection is only to ensure it's safe enough to work on. I don't think Tesla wants to carry any liability in terms of safe enough to DC fast charge, so I don't really see them offering an inspection that implies they certify it is safe to DC charge (even if in future they silently allow it again).

What about discharging 1500A? My point is that the car's HV system has been given a clean bill of health, and Tesla maintains their stance to avoid DCFC simply to sink the value of vehicles with salvage titles. While Tesla otherwise knows more about batteries than any other company, they become very stupid when it's convenient. "What could the problem with the HV system be?" "Oh I have no idea, but these cars sure are dangerous!" In addition, the car itself literally carries out a series of checks before every charging session to protect itself and the equipment from failure, and now those are apparently meaningless.

I still have no idea how they're allowed to get away with blocking DCFC on other networks.

 

[Rocky_H]

Even "other brands salvage cars" bursting into flames at a supercharger would not make news like a tesla (salvage or not) doing so, and if it was a salvage vehicle, that would quickly get lost in the news story.

I don't think that is correct. You are saying that it wouldn't get as much coverage if it were another brand of car but still at a Tesla Supercharger? I think we've proven that not true already multiple times. People are so eager to find bad news on Tesla that they will jump on any supposed story, regardless of whether it is Tesla's cars or Tesla's charging stations, regardless of what the other one is. (I still see that stupid picture over and over where it's just Supercharger stalls with no cars, but there's some flooding, and there is some water standing around the stalls.) My anecdote, which is definitely not the same as data, is when I kept seeing people slandering Tesla about how the Tesla Supercharger in Seaside Oregon "caught on fire", and there were the usual "haw haw" comments and insinuations about how it's all a big fiery death trap and how this supposedly proves that any electric anything is too dangerous, etc., etc.

Well, when digging into what had actually happened there at the Seaside Supercharger, it turned out it was some dumbo in a gas powered Mustang who was spinning donuts in the parking lot and crashed his car into the Superchargers, and then his car caught fire, because...gasoline. But that had no effect on people shouting that the Tesla Superchargers were the dangerous thing.

What about discharging 1500A? My point is that the car's HV system has been given a clean bill of health, and Tesla maintains their stance to avoid DCFC simply to sink the value of vehicles with salvage titles. While Tesla otherwise knows more about batteries than any other company, they become very stupid when it's convenient. "What could the problem with the HV system be?" "Oh I have no idea, but these cars sure are dangerous!" In addition, the car itself literally carries out a series of checks before every charging session to protect itself and the equipment from failure, and now those are apparently meaningless.

I still have no idea how they're allowed to get away with blocking DCFC on other networks.

You brought that up a couple of times, but I hadn't had a chance to respond to it yet. You seem to think that it's a case of Tesla "allowing" people to drive and discharge from the battery on damaged salvaged cars, as if it's intentional, and then saying it doesn't make sense and is hypocritical. But I don't think that's it at all. I think Tesla is consistent in their desire. They would love to not have damaged salvaged cars do ANYTHING. Don't drive them, don't use Tesla Superchargers, don't use any CHAdeMO or CCS, or sit in them or anything. That would match with their desire to not have risk of bad PR.

But it's simply a legal reality that they don't have control over all of those things. They can't prevent people from doing some of those things. They are blocking what they can and what they think they can get away with. Supercharger use is definitely within their permission and control to turn off, so they do. Other DC charging probably is not in their legal power to mess with, but it seems grey enough that they have tried a few times and been challenged on it, and at other times have realized they can't do that. As for other things, with people driving and using level2 charging of salvaged cars, Tesla probably wishes people wouldn't, but there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

What about discharging 1500A?

You seem to be assuming discharge is symmetrical, when it is not. A battery that can safely discharge multiple C many times can only charge at close to 1C. Charging is an exothermic reaction, while discharge is endothermic. You will notice for the Bolt fires, none of them happened while car was driven. They pretty much all happened while charging or after charging.

My point is that the car's HV system has been given a clean bill of health, and Tesla maintains their stance to avoid DCFC simply to sink the value of vehicles with salvage titles. While Tesla otherwise knows more about batteries than any other company, they become very stupid when it's convenient. "What could the problem with the HV system be?" "Oh I have no idea, but these cars sure are dangerous!" In addition, the car itself literally carries out a series of checks before every charging session to protect itself and the equipment from failure, and now those are apparently meaningless.

The pre-charge checks only really work assuming a battery without serious damage or defects and largely is to ensure safety of the connection itself and prevent electrocution. For example with the Bolt, such checks certainly didn't prevent fire, even during charging.

While Tesla has a good BMS, the ones after the Roadster has serious limitations (as discussed recently in other thread, for example it can't handle unmatched cells in the long term, so per cell repairs don't last) and the pack is not very modular (esp. later Model 3/Y) and not practical to do physical inspection of the cells or even modules (tearing open pack is fairly destructive).

I tried to look up what they check on the HV inspection and didn't find it, but I suspect it only pertains to the connections and any things related to electrocution risks while working on the car, not a comprehensive test that can ensure the battery pack actually as a whole performs correctly in all the extremes (much less an evaluation of at minimum physical module condition, if not cell condition).

I still have no idea how they're allowed to get away with blocking DCFC on other networks.

I would be interested in links to cases where it is confirmed that other DC networks are blocked unrelated to actual damage to the vehicle (or a third party station acting up). Last time I asked and I was pointed to the internal SC policy, but not actually to links to someone trying both out.
The current public policy says they block only supercharger access, they don't say anything about other DC charging.

 

[beatle]

I think Tesla is consistent in their desire. They would love to not have damaged salvaged cars do ANYTHING. Don't drive them, don't use Tesla Superchargers, don't use any CHAdeMO or CCS, or sit in them or anything. That would match with their desire to not have risk of bad PR.

But it's simply a legal reality that they don't have control over all of those things. They can't prevent people from doing some of those things. They are blocking what they can and what they think they can get away with. Supercharger use is definitely within their permission and control to turn off, so they do. Other DC charging probably is not in their legal power to mess with, but it seems grey enough that they have tried a few times and been challenged on it, and at other times have realized they can't do that. As for other things, with people driving and using level2 charging of salvaged cars, Tesla probably wishes people wouldn't, but there's nothing they can do about it.

I also think that's correct. Tesla abhors the idea that a car can be salvaged. The point I was trying to make was in regards to their block of the supercharger network under the guise of safety, but they will collect money for a HV inspection and then work on the HV components, so their safety angle for supercharger denial is bunk.

I would be interested in links to cases where it is confirmed that other DC networks are blocked unrelated to actual damage to the vehicle (or a third party station acting up). Last time I asked and I was pointed to the internal SC policy, but not actually to links to someone trying both out.
The current public policy says they block only supercharger access, they don't say anything about other DC charging.

I think there are a few mentions of them blocking DCFC in this thread earlier which I found surprising, but I'm not going to dig through all 280 posts. I'd have a lot less issue with their restrictions if they didn't/don't do that.

I wonder how they are handling non-Tesla supercharging sessions in Europe where they have less/no knowledge of the vehicle plugging in.

 

[MP3Mike]

The point I was trying to make was in regards to their block of the supercharger network under the guise of safety, but they will collect money for a HV inspection and then work on the HV components, so their safety angle for supercharger denial is bunk.

The point that he was trying to make is that the HV inspection is only to verify that it is safe for Tesla staff to work on the HV system. It in no way certifies it as safe to operate, charge, or Supercharge. (There can easily be hidden damage in the pack that likely wouldn't be identified.)

 

[henderrj]

I don't think that is correct. You are saying that it wouldn't get as much coverage if it were another brand of car but still at a Tesla Supercharger? I think we've proven that not true already multiple times. People are so eager to find bad news on Tesla that they will jump on any supposed story, regardless of whether it is Tesla's cars or Tesla's charging stations, regardless of what the other one is. (I still see that stupid picture over and over where it's just Supercharger stalls with no cars, but there's some flooding, and there is some water standing around the stalls.) My anecdote, which is definitely not the same as data, is when I kept seeing people slandering Tesla about how the Tesla Supercharger in Seaside Oregon "caught on fire", and there were the usual "haw haw" comments and insinuations about how it's all a big fiery death trap and how this supposedly proves that any electric anything is too dangerous, etc., etc.

Well, when digging into what had actually happened there at the Seaside Supercharger, it turned out it was some dumbo in a gas powered Mustang who was spinning donuts in the parking lot and crashed his car into the Superchargers, and then his car caught fire, because...gasoline. But that had no effect on people shouting that the Tesla Superchargers were the dangerous thing.


You brought that up a couple of times, but I hadn't had a chance to respond to it yet. You seem to think that it's a case of Tesla "allowing" people to drive and discharge from the battery on damaged salvaged cars, as if it's intentional, and then saying it doesn't make sense and is hypocritical. But I don't think that's it at all. I think Tesla is consistent in their desire. They would love to not have damaged salvaged cars do ANYTHING. Don't drive them, don't use Tesla Superchargers, don't use any CHAdeMO or CCS, or sit in them or anything. That would match with their desire to not have risk of bad PR.

But it's simply a legal reality that they don't have control over all of those things. They can't prevent people from doing some of those things. They are blocking what they can and what they think they can get away with. Supercharger use is definitely within their permission and control to turn off, so they do. Other DC charging probably is not in their legal power to mess with, but it seems grey enough that they have tried a few times and been challenged on it, and at other times have realized they can't do that. As for other things, with people driving and using level2 charging of salvaged cars, Tesla probably wishes people wouldn't, but there's nothing they can do about it.

There is one other aspect, that of monopoly. Tesla does have, especially for the older cars, a monopoly on DC fast charging for Tesla vehicles. Someone might go to court on that angle to try and get charging back. (I know, chademo adapters, but they're now unavailable, and the stations were never as ubiquitous as tesla's and do not allow travel in many parts of North america.)

 

[brainhouston]

I think @brainhouston 's idea that it's to try to eliminate cars with free Supercharging is probably the least likely explanation.

that was not my idea... other posters said that, i was just elaborating on it with my own opinions

The current public policy says they block only supercharger access, they don't say anything about other DC charging.

they do lol

Teslas With Rebuilt Title - Supercharging Removal

I believe they have changed that from what I have read. My CHAdeMO works just fine... but Tesla 100% does not charge when I take it to a Tesla Super Charge station. I have used CHAdeMO 5 or 6 times now with no issues.

teslamotorsclub.com

"•Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers of the Salvage-Titled vehicle is permanentlydisabled."

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think there are a few mentions of them blocking DCFC in this thread earlier which I found surprising, but I'm not going to dig through all 280 posts. I'd have a lot less issue with their restrictions if they didn't/don't do that.

I'm not digging through it either. I just ask for links from people who claim it is confirmed it happened. It can't be hard to find a few links if it really happened. Instead I was just pointed to the SC memo which mentions "and/or" third party charging being disabled.

I wonder how they are handling non-Tesla supercharging sessions in Europe where they have less/no knowledge of the vehicle plugging in.

In Europe, the non-Teslas are having CCS2 sessions, not supercharging sessions, so it's irrelevant to Tesla if a non-Tesla car is salvage or not. AFAIK there is no third party automaker using Tesla's supercharger protocol (which is CAN based similar to CHAdeMO, completely different than the GreenPHY based CCS protocol), although Aptera is hinting they may be planning to. Others already pointed out the PR implications being quite different even if you ignore that EU government likely won't take kindly to Tesla doing salvage exclusion of non-Teslas (EU was even considering forcing Tesla to open up all stations non-Teslas via legislation related to non-CCS protocols and private charging networks).

 

[stopcrazypp]

that was not my idea... other posters said that, i was just elaborating on it with my own opinions

they do lol

Teslas With Rebuilt Title - Supercharging Removal

I believe they have changed that from what I have read. My CHAdeMO works just fine... but Tesla 100% does not charge when I take it to a Tesla Super Charge station. I have used CHAdeMO 5 or 6 times now with no issues.

teslamotorsclub.com

"•Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers of the Salvage-Titled vehicle is permanentlydisabled."

That's an internal policy from 2020 (and notice it says "and/or"). That was what was pointed out to me before, but the person who pointed it out did not give explicit examples of third party DC charging actually being blocked (which is what I'm asking for), even after I followed up.

If you look a little up thread, someone even pointed out their supercharger was 100% blocked but CHAdeMO worked fine. You may have SCs claiming to the owner that third party DC charging is already blocked, based on reading that policy, but that is a different case from a user actually testing it was blocked (which is what I was asking for).
Teslas With Rebuilt Title - Supercharging Removal

This is what their public policy actually says right now on their website, related to supercharging:

When a vehicle is classified as a salvaged vehicle:
...

• Supercharging is permanently disabled.

Additional Resources | Tesla
There is zero mention of 3rd party charging (not even in "and/or" terms). In fact, it has been this way even back in 2020:
Teslas With Rebuilt Title - Supercharging Removal
Legally, Tesla has no standing to block 3rd party charging.

 

[Rocky_H]

The point I was trying to make was in regards to their block of the supercharger network under the guise of safety, but they will collect money for a HV inspection and then work on the HV components, so their safety angle for supercharger denial is bunk.

But you're forgetting that their policy has been shifting and changing a lot over the years. You talk about how they collect money for doing a HV inspection, but that just very recently came back into existence at all. For the last several years, they wouldn't even do that on any of their cars. So since they wouldn't do any inspections, they just decided it was easier to have a blanket "not allow" policy.

 

[Rocky_H]

That was what was pointed out to me before, but the person who pointed it out did not give explicit examples of third party DC charging actually being blocked (which is what I'm asking for), even after I followed up.

If you look a little up thread, someone even pointed out their supercharger was 100% blocked but CHAdeMO worked fine. You may have SCs claiming to the owner that third party DC charging is already blocked, based on reading that policy, but that is a different case from a user actually testing it was blocked (which is what I was asking for).

You have been asking for examples of salvage cars that had other non-Tesla DC fast charging like CHAdeMO turned off but didn't want to do the searching for it. I have done so, and here are some examples:

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I own a Tesla Model S85 that has a history of salvage title-rebuild. For the first year of ownership it had supercharging capability, then....... just like the rest of you out there it suddenly quit working. The instrument cluster didn't even say that Supercharging was disabled, just that there...

teslamotorsclub.com

"As a test, my local SC loaned me a ChaDemO adapter. I signed up with one of the independent charging networks. It did not work. Returned to SC and tech said it looked like the access to direct charging had been cut off. "

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I find it interesting that DC fast charging appears turned off on Ss but not on 3s and Ys. I also find it interesting that no one is suing Tesla yet for remotely changing a feature in a car after the car was purchased as-is-where-is with SC enabled. With my 3 I can still 3rd party charge so...

teslamotorsclub.com

"BTW: For everybody: EVgo is putting Tesla connectors on their Chademo chargers. I had the opportunity to try one- It's official! All DC charging is cut off and with the MCU2 upgrade the car now says "Supercharging not enabled" and the charge port turns red."

Salvage cars: Tesla permanently disabling SC from supercharger

Maybe Tesla doesn’t cross check the VIN with salvage databases until it’s supercharged? So it worked the first time but that triggered the system to check and see if the VIN was salvaged. Then by the next time it was marked as salvaged in Teslas database and blacklisted from supercharging...

teslamotorsclub.com

"Then the same guy recommended I get a Chademo for faster charging. After spending $540 on one of those I found it also doesn’t work!!!"

So there you go. There are three specific examples of people who have experienced this, where a salvaged car could not charge with CHAdeMO, and I think I've spent enough time on this.

 

[ElectricIAC]

You have been asking for examples of salvage cars that had other non-Tesla DC fast charging like CHAdeMO turned off but didn't want to do the searching for it. I have done so, and here are some examples:

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I own a Tesla Model S85 that has a history of salvage title-rebuild. For the first year of ownership it had supercharging capability, then....... just like the rest of you out there it suddenly quit working. The instrument cluster didn't even say that Supercharging was disabled, just that there...

teslamotorsclub.com

"As a test, my local SC loaned me a ChaDemO adapter. I signed up with one of the independent charging networks. It did not work. Returned to SC and tech said it looked like the access to direct charging had been cut off. "

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I find it interesting that DC fast charging appears turned off on Ss but not on 3s and Ys. I also find it interesting that no one is suing Tesla yet for remotely changing a feature in a car after the car was purchased as-is-where-is with SC enabled. With my 3 I can still 3rd party charge so...

teslamotorsclub.com

"BTW: For everybody: EVgo is putting Tesla connectors on their Chademo chargers. I had the opportunity to try one- It's official! All DC charging is cut off and with the MCU2 upgrade the car now says "Supercharging not enabled" and the charge port turns red."

Salvage cars: Tesla permanently disabling SC from supercharger

Maybe Tesla doesn’t cross check the VIN with salvage databases until it’s supercharged? So it worked the first time but that triggered the system to check and see if the VIN was salvaged. Then by the next time it was marked as salvaged in Teslas database and blacklisted from supercharging...

teslamotorsclub.com

"Then the same guy recommended I get a Chademo for faster charging. After spending $540 on one of those I found it also doesn’t work!!!"

So there you go. There are three specific examples of people who have experienced this, where a salvaged car could not charge with CHAdeMO, and I think I've spent enough time on this.

I’d be raising cane if they shut off ALL DCFC.

 

[brainhouston]

i doubt Tesla will ever change their stance on Salvage, multiple ppl have tried to no avail...
but honestly, as long as there're hackers that can unlock DC charging n lock Tesla out, that's all we need
hope Tesla will never find out how its done!
salvage cars lose warranty anyways so i don't see much need for Tesla, just need more ppl/shops get familiar n work on these cars
might start something myself since i like to do it as a hobby already

 

[stopcrazypp]

You have been asking for examples of salvage cars that had other non-Tesla DC fast charging like CHAdeMO turned off but didn't want to do the searching for it. I have done so, and here are some examples:

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I own a Tesla Model S85 that has a history of salvage title-rebuild. For the first year of ownership it had supercharging capability, then....... just like the rest of you out there it suddenly quit working. The instrument cluster didn't even say that Supercharging was disabled, just that there...

teslamotorsclub.com

"As a test, my local SC loaned me a ChaDemO adapter. I signed up with one of the independent charging networks. It did not work. Returned to SC and tech said it looked like the access to direct charging had been cut off. "

DC Charging a rebuild title Tesla

I find it interesting that DC fast charging appears turned off on Ss but not on 3s and Ys. I also find it interesting that no one is suing Tesla yet for remotely changing a feature in a car after the car was purchased as-is-where-is with SC enabled. With my 3 I can still 3rd party charge so...

teslamotorsclub.com

"BTW: For everybody: EVgo is putting Tesla connectors on their Chademo chargers. I had the opportunity to try one- It's official! All DC charging is cut off and with the MCU2 upgrade the car now says "Supercharging not enabled" and the charge port turns red."

Salvage cars: Tesla permanently disabling SC from supercharger

Maybe Tesla doesn’t cross check the VIN with salvage databases until it’s supercharged? So it worked the first time but that triggered the system to check and see if the VIN was salvaged. Then by the next time it was marked as salvaged in Teslas database and blacklisted from supercharging...

teslamotorsclub.com

"Then the same guy recommended I get a Chademo for faster charging. After spending $540 on one of those I found it also doesn’t work!!!"

So there you go. There are three specific examples of people who have experienced this, where a salvaged car could not charge with CHAdeMO, and I think I've spent enough time on this.

Thanks, if the person arguing with me just posted those, then it would answer my question instead of just keep posting the policy which means nothing (given it contradicts with the public policy and there are examples of cars still working with third party DC). Looks like for S/X both is turned off and for 3/Y third party DC is kept. I wonder if this is just a implementation detail (maybe S/X does not have an easy way to independently turn off SC).

Then on the other hand, if this is related to unlimited supercharging, S/X had them, but 3/Y didn't (other than a limited non-transferable promo for M3P). But it doesn't make sense to limit third party DC, in this case, given it doesn't affect superchargers.
How to tell if your Tesla qualifies for free Supercharging

 

[Rocky_H]

Looks like for S/X both is turned off and for 3/Y third party DC is kept. I wonder if this is just a implementation detail (maybe S/X does not have an easy way to independently turn off SC).

It wasn't even consistently divided on different model types. There were a lot of (most, I would say) S/X that got Supercharging disabled, but the CHAdeMO did still work. What you mentioned in that last part did start to occur to me yesterday. I wonder if this was not done intentionally. I do wonder if this was some clumsiness or incompetence by employees in how this was done, since it seemed to be in a pretty small number of cases. I do wonder if the intent was just to disable the Supercharger setting, but whoever was doing it didn't understand the right way to make the configuration change, and accidentally turned off all forms of DC charging.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It wasn't even consistently divided on different model types. There were a lot of (most, I would say) S/X that got Supercharging disabled, but the CHAdeMO did still work.

If that is the case that's even more weird.

What you mentioned in that last part did start to occur to me yesterday. I wonder if this was not done intentionally. I do wonder if this was some clumsiness or incompetence by employees in how this was done, since it seemed to be in a pretty small number of cases. I do wonder if the intent was just to disable the Supercharger setting, but whoever was doing it didn't understand the right way to make the configuration change, and accidentally turned off all forms of DC charging.

If there are separate toggles, it could be SCs got confused by the "and/or" messaging in that memo.

 

[M0rpH3x]

Thanks, if the person arguing with me just posted those, then it would answer my question instead of just keep posting the policy which means nothing (given it contradicts with the public policy and there are examples of cars still working with third party DC). Looks like for S/X both is turned off and for 3/Y third party DC is kept. I wonder if this is just a implementation detail (maybe S/X does not have an easy way to independently turn off SC).

Then on the other hand, if this is related to unlimited supercharging, S/X had them, but 3/Y didn't (other than a limited non-transferable promo for M3P). But it doesn't make sense to limit third party DC, in this case, given it doesn't affect superchargers.
How to tell if your Tesla qualifies for free Supercharging

Yes, I think there are implementation details, and that’s why you get these weird, inconsistent results everywhere.

My understanding is that if your Model S/X could use chademo (or CCS) before it became salvage, most likely you can still use it. But if you never tried before, other DC charging needs EXPLICIT activation. So if your car was not activated before it became salvage, Tesla won’t activate it.

Regarding the EVgo charger, if it uses the SC protocol, then you won’t be able to use it with SC disabled.

Finally, these are my thoughts, but if I remember well, there was one case of EXPLICIT disabling of other DC charging. But if you ask me for proof, I won’t be able to find any. Maybe I should enable teleforce for a while and see what happens.

 

[remilekun]

I'm not digging through it either. I just ask for links from people who claim it is confirmed it happened. It can't be hard to find a few links if it really happened. Instead I was just pointed to the SC memo which mentions "and/or" third party charging being disabled.

In Europe, the non-Teslas are having CCS2 sessions, not supercharging sessions, so it's irrelevant to Tesla if a non-Tesla car is salvage or not. AFAIK there is no third party automaker using Tesla's supercharger protocol (which is CAN based similar to CHAdeMO, completely different than the GreenPHY based CCS protocol), although Aptera is hinting they may be planning to. Others already pointed out the PR implications being quite different even if you ignore that EU government likely won't take kindly to Tesla doing salvage exclusion of non-Teslas (EU was even considering forcing Tesla to open up all stations non-Teslas via legislation related to non-CCS protocols and private charging networks).

I didn’t realise the super chargers that non Tesla vehicles are using go through a different protocol! Does that mean a salvage Tesla can supercharge on a Tesla Supercharger that has been opened up to all vehicles? Has anyone tried this?

 

[M0rpH3x]

I didn’t realise the super chargers that non Tesla vehicles are using go through a different protocol! Does that mean a salvage Tesla can supercharge on a Tesla Supercharger that has been opened up to all vehicles? Has anyone tried this?

I’ll try soon, my car arrived but I’m not allowed on street roads yet.

 

[remilekun]

I’ll try soon, my car arrived but I’m not allowed on street roads yet.

Nearest one to me is about 40 miles away (UK based) so won’t be able to test this for a while, but could be a game changer if it does work, especially since I’m sure I heard that Tesla was planning to open their entire UK network to third party cars in future