Sandy Munro talks about the teardown of the Model 3

[apsen]

If I understand what Jeff is talking about, using the battery case for structural integrity of the car implies that it becomes the front line of taking damage during an impact. Making the battery a crumple zone seems like a path to meltdowns, no?

You don't have to go that far. There's some strength in the battery pack that could be borrowed without doing damage to the pack.

Also as long as you could prevent fire the battery only needs to be protected to the point where the car could be repaired. If it goes beyond that the survival of the battery is irrelevant.

 

[ricohman]

It's a lot of re-engineering work to get the same power output. That's the core of why you see faster 0-60 times on higher range variants, because a higher capacity battery, for the same given voltage and the same cells used in it, even though they have more mass to accelerate. The larger battery has more cells in parallel and more cells in parallel allows higher current output from the battery.


What city/town? Because every Peavey Mart has an 80A L2, and there are a number of places on the Trans Canada with as much L2 as the Model 3 can handle. There is also a number of parks with power for RVs, if you need to fill gaps. So you'll be able to get there, it's just a question spent charging of time for that last 350km. Well it's longer than that this time of year, as you'll not be getting the 550km or so that the LR RWD is good for.

A BEV in SK is definitely an adventure in the wilderness at this point, but it's not impossible.

I live east of Regina. And there is a Peavey Mart there. I just bought some electric fencing stakes there a couple months ago. But it's only 40 min from me. I need to make a Peavey Mart plan along the Trans Canada as that will be my route.
Worse case I will just take the car hauler to Calgary to bring it back.

 

[ℬête Noire]

You don't have to go that far. There's some strength in the battery pack that could be borrowed without doing damage to the pack.

Tesla was operating out in the BEV Land of Dragons, with plenty of idiots ready to lay on the FUD if there's even a hint of an issue in some direction. Like the eminently-face-punchable turd sitting on the right side of this video.

Lending stiffness means you've opened yourself to being compromised, you're less protected.

What's more, Tesla has more options to head the other way now with the battery. We already know they are redoing the battery pack enclosure for the SR (unclear if that also means the LR's enclosure).

 

[VT_EE]

You asked why weight is important, not why weight should be important to you.

BTW someone who knows how to drive well will easily beat you with a Miata around a timed close course track to a non-driver in a Performance Model 3. You see this happening at every HPDE event, where the Porsche, Ferrari, BMW etc give the point by and let the 130hp Miata pass.

The Miata is a 2 seat convertible. Why are we comparing cars that are so completely different. You want a legit comparison? Argue over the differences between the BMW M3 or 340xi vs the Model 3.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I live east of Regina. And there is a Peavey Mart there. I just bought some electric fencing stakes there a couple months ago. But it's only 40 min from me. I need to make a Peavey Mart plan along the Trans Canada as that will be my route.
Worse case I will just take the car hauler to Calgary to bring it back.

Getting OT here so check out the Western Canada forum and/or Plugshare.com. There's the Sun Highway to get you there. Just make sure to take the time to bring the car to 100% at the SC before you leave and plan on a L2 charging bump in Medicine Hat and Swift Current, or some such.

P.S. If you are going to spend a day or two in Calgary try take the car to 100% ahead of the trip. Or I guess ask the Tesla people to do it ahead of you taking delivery. Because it's unlikely that the battery will get to 100% the first try, and it'll be really slow the last few %. This is because the battery needs to balance the charge across the cells, and it loses that balance over use (or never fully had it to start with, not sure Tesla takes their batteries to 95+% as normal course of manufacturing?).

 

[VT_EE]

This I do not know. Would a smaller pack give the same power output for a shorter time? This is beyond my experience and I won't even make a guess.
It would be something if you could swap a smaller battery for a handful of runs. Imagine a half size battery that weighs 500lbs less. It would be like removing 2 large dudes from your car. But shorter range though.
Speaking of range. If I buy my car in Calgary I don't think I can drive it back to Saskatchewan as we have no charging infrastructure. Or so I have read. And it's over 850km away.

Think of the the battery and motors as the equivalent of an ICE engine. The specs of both pieces determine the power output of the system. So a large battery/motor would be equivalent to a V8 whereas the same motor with a tiny battery is the 4-banger. Of course there are many factors that affect power delivery including chemistry. Many gear heads are going to need to take some electrical engineering classes to understand EVs enough to do effective tinckering with the drive train. The most fascinating thing about the Model 3 to me is that crazy magnet. Anybody who has taken EM fields in college knows how complicated designing that simple piece is. The Model 3 really makes ICE vehicles look like dinosaurs. That is primarily why I love this car. It is a step function in vehicle technology advancement.

 

[ricohman]

Think of the the battery and motors as the equivalent of an ICE engine. The specs of both pieces determine the power output of the system. So a large battery/motor would be equivalent to a V8 whereas the same motor with a tiny battery is the 4-banger. Of course there are many factors that affect power delivery including chemistry. Many gear heads are going to need to take some electrical engineering classes to understand EVs enough to do effective tinckering with the drive train. The most fascinating thing about the Model 3 to me is that crazy magnet. Anybody who has taken EM fields in college knows how complicated designing that simple piece is. The Model 3 really makes ICE vehicles look like dinosaurs. That is primarily why I love this car. It is a step function in vehicle technology advancement.

It truly is high tech and revolutionary. The performance speaks for itself.
As a car guy I have many other vehicles (and bikes) but the Model 3 won't replace any of them. It will be added to the hoard and begin it's life running to the city and back.

 

[DBeckwith]

I've been building cars for decades. Power and weight are everything.

Up through the seventies US auto engineers just kept making cars bigger and more powerful. However, everything changed when oil supply became an issue. Reducing weight then became the mantra and is now embedded in the auto engineer DNA.

However, I tend to think emphasizing weight has been a barrier to battery electric vehicles. Why would we want a solution that requires bigger brakes, beefier suspension, fatter tires, etc.? Doesn't this take us back to the mistakes of the seventies.

I suspect this is what Elon had to fight when working with his engineers. Engineers today have a bias against more weight and I wouldn't doubt Elon emphasized other goals to compensate. Imagine if he let the engineers prioritize weight in a future upgrade now that he has a proven platform.

This is totally speculative, but you have to admit the Model 3 is quite an impressive car even if it has body weight issues.

 

[Uncle Paul]

The Germans took a different look at increasing performance by adding weight. They wanted to make powerful and high performing comfortable Grand Touring vehicles. They went the opposite way and ended up with 5,000 lb. Autobahan burners.
To get better performance they added larger tires and brakes, sophisticate electronically enhanced and adjustable suspension systems. They enlarged the engines, added turbo, twin turbo, supercharging to get massive acceleration. They went to 8-10 speed automatic transmissions to give low range starting power, mid range passing power and uber high speed cruising. V8- V10 & V12 cylinder motors were installed. No Miata in the world can compete at these levels.
Only place that Miata, Mini or Lotus type cars can compete is on very tight racing road courses. They are zippy, but must run at full throttle, provide a noisy-harsh ride and be well driven to compete. Use manual transmissions and operate at relatively high revs. They have very tiny and efficient 4cyl motors with little luxury, space or comfort. They must be flogged hard to maintain pace. Full attention is required to maintain speed.

Tesla is not concentrating on track cars. They are mass producing very high performance road going 4-7 seaters. They are comfortable, quiet and have amazing electric drive systems. Throttle control is far better than any race control and power flows smoothly with little effort.

Occasional track use is fun and exciting, but the current goal is more to provide non-polluting personal transportation to clean up our Urban areas than to provide tiny track cars.

The weight of a sufficient battery pack to offer great performance and long range will keep them from inexpensively competing with Miata type cars.

I believe that the upcoming New Roadster may provide more of those track thrills, but the price will be high.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Nope, you don't really understand what Munro is saying - he's complaining about DEAD weight (i.e. useless weight that does nothing beneficial for the car).

Do you really not care about that? In that case please load your car to the maximum allowed cargo weight before you head to the track. Would you do that?

Didn't think so.

Morono does not qualify as one who can say that there is "dead weight". What he "can" say is that he doesn't know why a certain thing is on the Model 3.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Right, by removing all that dead weight Munro mentions the car will not perform as current Model 3 because it will perform better.

Again. and again. There is no Dead Weight.

The Model 3's weight is purposeful.

Tesla isn't thinking about "the track" all of the time. They aren't thinking "range" all of the time They aren't thinking "acceleration" all of the time. They aren't thinking of "safety" all of the time. They aren't thinking of "performance" all of the time.

They think of all of them at the same time...and if once they finish....they end up with the safest / longest range / quickest acceleration / and best performance car in its entire class.....and if it took additional weight to get there.....then the weight isn't not dead weight.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Munro is an expert on taking apart vehicles and seeing where they can save money. He compares one companies design against the best.
He feels that the rear section of the Model 3 could be made cheaper, with fewer welds and less material.

I am not sure that he is taking into consideration that the Model 3 is a rear engined vehicle, like a Porsche 911 or McLaren. The motor needs additional structure to maintain its integrety when producing torque, both forward and in reverse with regeneration.

Front Wheel Drive vehicles can have much less structure in their rear ends as it only needs to provide limited structural rigidity.

Overall I am much happier for him to tell us that the car is a bit overbuilt, rather than just marginally sufficient..

Tesla will continue to re-evaluate their designs, and remove costs whenever it makes sense.

 

[apsen]

Morono does not qualify as one who can say that there is "dead weight". What he "can" say is that he doesn't know why a certain thing is on the Model 3.

Well, I've seen what he had to say and definitely would like ho hear what else he has to say. Not that I'm an expert myself.

But on the other hand just the fact that you wouldn't even write his name correctly disqualifies you from being taking seriously. And post after post you keep enforcing that impression.

 

[Vitold]

Munro does not have much experience with heavy cars that produce lots of torque.

I also like that Tesla decided to protect the battery instead of making it load carrying member.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Apsen,
Why the personal attack?

 

[apsen]

Apsen,
Why the personal attack?

It does look like that, doesn't it?

Let me try to tone it down...

 

[apsen]

Munro does not have much experience with heavy cars that produce lots of torque.

Do you have any evidence that supports that opinion?

I also like that Tesla decided to protect the battery instead of making it load carrying member.

It is definitely better than not making it strong enough, I'll grant you that. But would you say Munro lied about his interaction with Musk?

 

[Vitold]

Do you have any evidence that supports that opinion?

Do you know any other sedans that Munro might have disassembled that are heavy and have powerful electric motor in the rear that are not Tesla?

 

[apsen]

Do you know any other sedans that Munro might have disassembled that are heavy and have powerful electric motor in the rear that are not Tesla?

That is not the statement you have initially made... But you have not answered my other question.

 

[voip-ninja]

Do you know any other sedans that Munro might have disassembled that are heavy and have powerful electric motor in the rear that are not Tesla?

Hurrah for goal post moving?

It doesn’t require special industry knowledge about electric propulsion to know how much material or welds or fasteners a unibody takes to build.

Nobody here arguing Munro is an idiot has tried to offer an explanation or refutation of Musk interaction with Munro in which Musk brusquely stated that the guy who did the unibody was “an idiot” that Musk fired.