Service says $22k for new battery on 2012 Model S

[MP3Mike]

For those not believing these things happen with any frequency, I'll add another data point to the mix. Our 2013 P85 (bought in 2015 when they started the CPO program) currently has 244k miles on it. The battery has been replaced twice, once at 190k and again at ~220k. The first time was because the car would basically say we were out of juice and shut off, yet the gauge still showed 40+ miles of range.

When was that battery replaced the first time? (It is likely that Tesla has recently resolved the early shutdown problem with firmware updates, so that particular issue might not happen anymore.)

 

[Altes]

Most OEMs offer a 1 year warranty for parts replaced under warranty ( some offer none - when the warranty is over it is over even for parts replaced the day before ) and less than 4 years for customer pay parts. This is the reason few people replace major components in any car when the cost of the repair approaches or exceeds the value of the car when it was running and why cars that don't run because a major component has failed are virtually worthless. The manufacturers are in business to sell new cars not keep 9 year old ones on the road.

This reinforces the fact that Elon feels no obligation to customers once he takes your money...Seen it time and time again

 

[SigNC]

This reinforces the fact that Elon feels no obligation to customers once he takes your money...Seen it time and time again

What would your preferred warranty be? The car is still covered under the original powertrain warranty it just so happened it also was out. Do you think the replacement battery should come with a new 8 year warranty?

 

[DarkMatter]

Then you are REALLY going to hate the 4680 setup.

They're concerns, not hate. I'm actually pretty okay with the battery getting harder to service if it has a matching improvement in reliability. Like if 99% of cars make it to 350k miles with no battery issues it's a pretty good gamble. Problem is I don't know that we will know until we get there.

 

[rns-e]

If these failures were widespread I would be right there with you. However it sounds as if battery failures are fairly rare, and the aftermarket is already stepping in, in the form of Jason's services and such.

It's my impression that battery failures are very common, but the excellent 8 year (basically no questions asked) warranty on the batteries is effectively making it a non issue in the public. We are only just now stepping into the out-of-battery-warranty territory and it's going to be interesting to see if the rate of battery failures on +8 y.o. cars with or without replacement battery will increase or decrease. Logic would say increase.

I know there is a battery shortage, but from an environmental image point of view it would just look so damn cool if Tesla offered an extended battery warranty for the cars when they turn 8 y.o. They have all the data on each battery so they can even have three - five different price points based on various factors such as x life time SuC sessions, mileage, life time charge cycles etc. etc.

This would alleviate the 'life time range anxiety' and i.e. help move people that have fewer money to allocate to cars into EV's.

The easier it is for existing owners to sell their old cars the more new cars they will buy.

We all know that expensive cars like Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7 series etc. are basically sinking financial ships from the moment they leave the dealership and within 7-9 years close to worthless because of the expensive maintenance, it would be sad to see Tesla in that segment.

 

[cwerdna]

Ah, yes, you're right.

Maybe ten?

The numbers are TINY relative to the thousands made.

"Mountain out of molehill."

Nope. Too bad nobody adds nor updates to this survey any longer: Battery Survey « Plug In America. Battery Survey « Plug In America is a snapshot from 2018.

From that 109 vehicles that were model year '12 that responded, the 16.5% percent alone counts for 18 pack replacements. We have a bunch mentioned here. Edmunds needed a new pack at 18K miles: Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

Pack Replacement Thread and Main Battery Replacement both have some. 3 Ways To Ruin Your Tesla Battery, Plus What It Costs To Replace It and What to do?!?!? 2013 Model S 60 Battery fail are some others. Here are a few others from my bookmarks:
Battery runs out with 16% indicated range remaining
Battery runs out with 16% indicated range remaining
What battery failure looks like
PSA: "Battery Coolant Heater" not included in battery warranty
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Nope. Too bad nobody adds nor updates to this survey any longer: Battery Survey « Plug In America. Battery Survey « Plug In America is a snapshot from 2018.

From that 109 vehicles that were model year '12 that responded, the 16.5% percent alone counts for 18 pack replacements. We have a bunch mentioned here. Edmunds needed a new pack at 18K miles: Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

Pack Replacement Thread and Main Battery Replacement both have some. 3 Ways To Ruin Your Tesla Battery, Plus What It Costs To Replace It and What to do?!?!? 2013 Model S 60 Battery fail are some others. Here are a few others from my bookmarks:
Battery runs out with 16% indicated range remaining
Battery runs out with 16% indicated range remaining
What battery failure looks like
PSA: "Battery Coolant Heater" not included in battery warranty
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery
Replacement 85kwh Battery

All likely interesting but also self-selected due to having an issue: you never hear from the thousands (or perhaps tens of thousands by now?) that are out of the 8-year warranty and don't post threads stating, "Battery just fine" because those posts don't exist.

That said, it would be useful for Tesla to create some sort of ESA for the battery, but at some point the cost/benefit analysis has to overcome the "goodwill" aspect of such a program. Eight years is a lot of use for a car, and there ARE other options now for those that won't just trade it in and get a Model 3 or Model Y (which would be an optimal solution--just give the car with the bad battery to Tesla and let them figure out what to do with it!). For those that can't or won't there are options: Gruber Motors, wk057, automobile recycling yards, etc.

 

[rns-e]

For those that can't or won't there are options: Gruber Motors, wk057, automobile recycling yards, etc.

As good as those options are, they are not options for the average owner who only interact with Tesla and have no mechanical or technical interest in cars.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

As good as those options are, they are not options for the average owner who only interact with Tesla and have no mechanical or technical interest in cars.

Concur.

Tesla should get ahead of this issue by giving an enhanced trade-in value for such cars and then applying their very large brains on what to do with them once they own them again.

One option: remove the remaining good modules to build more replacement packs at a lower cost?

Another: rebuild the bad modules a la Gruber Motors, but more efficiently since they can make covers easily and cheaply, vs. trying to salvage the old covers.

In closing, the $22k is just massively over-priced and WILL give Tesla a bad rap going forward; there HAS to be a lower-cost way to mitigate these failures. Elon: please find it as this could get out of hand!

 

[DarkMatter]

It's my impression that battery failures are very common, but the excellent 8 year (basically no questions asked) warranty on the batteries is effectively making it a non issue in the public. We are only just now stepping into the out-of-battery-warranty territory and it's going to be interesting to see if the rate of battery failures on +8 y.o. cars with or without replacement battery will increase or decrease. Logic would say increase.

I think we're both whistling in the dark here a bit, as we don't really have any data on battery replacement rates, just anecdotes.

One thing I can say: Tesla publishes their warranty reserve financials because they have to, being a publicly traded company. They have been spending less than expected on warranty repairs. Their 10-K for last year specifies their common issues: "Issues experienced by our customers have included those related to the Model S and Model X 17-inch display screen, the panoramic roof and the 12-volt battery in the Model S, the seats and doors in the Model X and the operation of solar panels installed by us." You can also see that their warranty reserves have been holding up very well, meaning they have been keeping more money aside for warranty repairs than has been needed, by quite for a bit. Look for yourself at tsla-10k_20201231.htm

 

[rns-e]

I think we're both whistling in the dark here a bit, as we don't really have any data on battery replacement rates, just anecdotes.

One thing I can say: Tesla publishes their warranty reserve financials because they have to, being a publicly traded company. They have been spending less than expected on warranty repairs. Their 10-K for last year specifies their common issues: "Issues experienced by our customers have included those related to the Model S and Model X 17-inch display screen, the panoramic roof and the 12-volt battery in the Model S, the seats and doors in the Model X and the operation of solar panels installed by us." You can also see that their warranty reserves have been holding up very well, meaning they have been keeping more money aside for warranty repairs than has been needed, by quite for a bit. Look for yourself at tsla-10k_20201231.htm

It would be nice to have all the numbers. But what we (I) have is a little more than anecdotes. So we are a group of 9 original P85D 03/2015 owners, and at this point 4 of us have had the battery changed under warranty. And I personally (not hear say or anecdotes) know of several other 85 owners who had their battery changed under warranty.

I'm not saying that the overall number is even close to 50% like my little sample group, but I'm saying it must be a significant number.

 

[cduzz]

All likely interesting but also self-selected due to having an issue: you never hear from the thousands (or perhaps tens of thousands by now?) that are out of the 8-year warranty and don't post threads stating, "Battery just fine" because those posts don't exist.

That said, it would be useful for Tesla to create some sort of ESA for the battery, but at some point the cost/benefit analysis has to overcome the "goodwill" aspect of such a program. Eight years is a lot of use for a car, and there ARE other options now for those that won't just trade it in and get a Model 3 or Model Y (which would be an optimal solution--just give the car with the bad battery to Tesla and let them figure out what to do with it!). For those that can't or won't there are options: Gruber Motors, wk057, automobile recycling yards, etc.

There is an ESA for the battery; it costs $22k. You replace the battery and get a 4 year ESA. You may enroll at any time...

Is the battery new if you buy a new battery?

What's the replacement rate for the electric motors?

I've heard motors from tesla cost in the 10-20k range as well, so you're looking at a 60k liability for an out-of-warranty dual motor car. That's a bit much. If buying a new battery extended the battery/motor warranty, I'd be happy to go in on it if / when my car goes off warranty, presuming the rest of the car's held up okay.

 

[DarkMatter]

It would be nice to have all the numbers. But what we (I) have is a little more than anecdotes. So we are a group of 9 original P85D 03/2015 owners, and at this point 4 of us have had the battery changed under warranty. And I personally (not hear say or anecdotes) know of several other 85 owners who had their battery changed under warranty.

I'm not saying that the overall number is even close to 50% like my little sample group, but I'm saying it must be a significant number.

I wonder how many of those were due to the BMS 1.5 issues that were recently corrected via software? If the batteries were replaced for early shutdown that seems possible.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

My 2013 P85 has gone through 5 drive units in 115,000 miles. The most recent failure was a year ago. I'm out of warranty in August and I'm terrified. My original battery has been performing great, but that also gives me pause. I feel like I'm one of the few who hasn't needed a battery replacement. How to quantify?

My choice is to either keep the car and roll the dice on the battery, or sell it and buy a new Model 3 for roughly the same out of pocket cost as a new battery (approx. $25k). Advice is appreciated!

 

[DarkMatter]

My 2013 P85 has gone through 5 drive units in 115,000 miles. The most recent failure was a year ago. I'm out of warranty in August and I'm terrified. My original battery has been performing great, but that also gives me pause. I feel like I'm one of the few who hasn't needed a battery replacement. How to quantify?

My choice is to either keep the car and roll the dice on the battery, or sell it and buy a new Model 3 for roughly the same out of pocket cost as a new battery (approx. $25k). Advice is appreciated!

Any insight in to the failure causes? I know it took them a lot of revs to figure out why the bearings were getting destroyed in the early units (the 'milling noise').

 

[toddkageals]

My 2013 P85 has gone through 5 drive units in 115,000 miles. The most recent failure was a year ago. I'm out of warranty in August and I'm terrified. My original battery has been performing great, but that also gives me pause. I feel like I'm one of the few who hasn't needed a battery replacement. How to quantify?

My choice is to either keep the car and roll the dice on the battery, or sell it and buy a new Model 3 for roughly the same out of pocket cost as a new battery (approx. $25k). Advice is appreciated!

If that's the way the finances truly work out, I would not even think about it! Buy a new Model 3!

 

[hcdavis3]

If that's the way the finances truly work out, I would not even think about it! Buy a new Model 3!

Agreed, buy a new 3.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

It seems we've gotten off track of the OP's point, that Tesla wants $22k for a replacement battery while the cost of batteries is dropping. The advice to seek out Rich Rebuilds is good, and hopefully other independent companies will fill this likely expanding market as more of us are in OP's shoes.

The same price inflation has happened with Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt batteries.

The larger the EV market becomes, the more you'll see 3rd-party solutions. But for now, expect this stuff to happen.

 

[SmartElectric]

For reference, Tesla modules sell for $1300 USD/kWh on the used market.
EVTV Motor Verks Store: Tesla Model S Battery Module, Tesla Model S Battery Modules, TeslaBattModule
An 80 kWh usable pack is therefore worth $20K USD on used market.
Tesla is therefore NOT "over charging" for battery replacement.

Frankly, if my battery went, I'd part my car out and make 2x the Tesla trade in offer!

Re: motor, this one is $2700 USD as-is. That's without mounting, coding, wiring, etc back into the car, another $2K, so make that ~$6K for motor replacement from used. For reference : I paid $8K for a full motor replacement on a performance ICE car in the 1990's.

 

[ucmndd]

An 80 kWh usable pack is therefore worth $20K USD on used market.
Tesla is therefore NOT "over charging" for battery replacement.

In reality they're charging $22k PLUS they keep the old one (which as you point out has significant value - others have said they want a $15k core charge if you ask to keep the old part).

So yeah, a total cost of $37,000 to replace a battery is indeed "over charging".