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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015

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Its only significance is that it may be a hint of a Model X delay, or a slower than anticipated Model X ramp. And in the short term, those are pretty big significant factors.

Not in the context of what Elon said: There will be no reveal of the Model X prior to the first deliveries. It's more than possible that Founders will privately configure their X's and not until they receive them will the design studio be online for everyone else. That means not July and not August.
 
It seems that it will screen on Australian channel 9 tonight, according to local TV guide.

60minutes.JPG
 
He already said last week the X is on time for release in two months time.

Yes, that's what he said.

But he also said the configurator would probably open in 3 months. 5 more days and if it doesn't happen and we can add it too to the growing list of 'things Elon has been too optimistic about'.

And just to keep on topic....oh, would you look at that TSLA stock price... Yeah, I'm really okay with him being vague about a lot of things.

Yep, that's exactly what is so amazing to me. How much Tesla gets away with in missed promises, misleiding presentations and other shady shenigans without any material impact on the stock price. I certainly gained from it too but each time I am wondering, will the ride keep riding or should I get out because it will catch up with them?
 
Yep, that's exactly what is so amazing to me. How much Tesla gets away with in missed promises, misleiding presentations and other shady shenigans without any material impact on the stock price. I certainly gained from it too but each time I am wondering, will the ride keep riding or should I get out because it will catch up with them?

I find it unlikely and incongruent that anyone would invest in a business and at the same time would consider that business as engaging in "misleading presentations and other shady shenanigans". Whoever backs "misleading presentations and other shady shenanigans" with their money is becoming a party to such behaviour.

Each investor evaluates for themselves how much they trust in senior management and how much respect they have for a business based on business and senior management performance. We all act in accord with our views. I only invest in businesses that I respect and whose management I trust.

If that is how you view Tesla's business, then perhaps you might be better off acting in accord with your views.
 
I find it unlikely and incongruent that anyone would invest in a business and at the same time would consider that business as engaging in "misleading presentations and other shady shenanigans". Whoever backs "misleading presentations and other shady shenanigans" with their money is becoming a party to such behaviour.

Each investor evaluates for themselves how much they trust in senior management and how much respect they have for a business based on business and senior management performance. We all act in accord with our views. I only invest in businesses that I respect and whose management I trust.

If that is how you view Tesla's business, then perhaps you might be better off acting in accord with your views.

+1 Agree
 
Whoever backs "misleading presentations and other shady shenanigans" with their money is becoming a party to such behaviour.

Capitalism and morals, it's always been a difficult topic.

Each investor evaluates for themselves how much they trust in senior management and how much respect they have for a business based on business and senior management performance. We all act in accord with our views. I only invest in businesses that I respect and whose management I trust.

If that is how you view Tesla's business, then perhaps you might be better off acting in accord with your views.

Exactly, which is why I keep asking myself the question I asked in the post you replied to. Management quality is just one piece of the larger company evaluation puzzle. Weaknesses Tesla has there have been mitigated by their product vision which is unparalleled. At which point one crosses over to become more important than the other is anyone's guess but I freely admit I would have thought this to have happened sooner. But it doesn't, to my amazement.
 
Capitalism and morals, it's always been a difficult topic.

Perhaps you may find it difficult.

It is disrespectful to claim that Tesla engages in "misleading and other shady shenanigans" and that investors are backing such behaviour.

I would never back anyone who engages in misleading behaviour and other shady shenanigans, with my money or in any other ways. I would be surprised if other investors held views similar to yours and stayed invested, that does not make sense to me.

Management quality is just one piece of the larger company evaluation puzzle. Weaknesses Tesla has there have been mitigated by their product vision which is unparalleled. At which point one crosses over to become more important than the other is anyone's guess but I freely admit I would have thought this to have happened sooner. But it doesn't, to my amazement.

Poor quality management can not possibly come up with good quality product and compelling and inspirational vision. The compelling inspirational vision and superior product quality are the direct results of management quality, hence I find your statement illogical.

I have no expectation or intention of changing your views, just stating that my views are very different to yours.
 
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Pure optimism is neither being intentionally misleading or shenanigans. Repeated unrealistically optimistic statements can become a bit annoying eventually. In the case of Elon and Tesla I feel they're very far from being anything more than slightly annoying, seeing as they are delivering a superior product usually above and beyond expectations.

Setting the bar high gives you something to strive for. This is important when you neither have competitors to try to surpass nor competition breathing down your neck.
 
It is disrespectful to claim that Tesla engages in "misleading and other shady shenanigans" and that investors are backing such behaviour.

I didn't make any moral judgment on the investors. That's purely on you. I did however make a moral judgment on what Tesla does. I keep standing by that statement and I don't consider it disrespectful because I think it's true.

Poor quality management can not possibly come up with good quality product and compelling and inspirational vision. The compelling inspirational vision and superior product quality are the direct results of management quality, hence I find your statement illogical.

I don't quite see it that way. You can have weaknesses in management and still have a great vision/product/marketshare. I think Elon Musk is actually in violent agreement with me here because there have been several investor presentations where they themselves agree that their execution is lacking. And not just in the standard SEC legalese boilerplate but in the meat of the subject.

I have no expectation or intention of changing your views, just stating that my views are very different to yours and I for sure act in accord with my views.

That's a shame because I am here to have my view changed so I will make better decision with my investments.
 
That's a shame because I am here to have my view changed so I will make better decision with my investments.

Good luck with your investments.:smile:

Regarding investment decision-making, my view is that other investors opinions or views are not as relevant as data and information gathering and processing.

Quality of personal investment decisions is easy to evaluate, just check your trading account.:biggrin:
 
How much Tesla gets away with in missed promises, misleiding presentations and other shady shenigans without any material impact on the stock price. I certainly gained from it too but each time I am wondering, will the ride keep riding or should I get out because it will catch up with them?

You can put crappy products on time or put out polished products when they're ready. It's the Quality/Cost/Time triangle: choose any two, which determine the third. They have a high bar in quality, they've spent hugely already, so time must slip.

I'd much rather a quality product that people rave about than poor reviews and unhappy customers; other businesses seem to disagree.

Having bet and been burned by Elon's timelines previously, I now take his estimates and add a year.
 
Schnonelucht, nothing shady about Elon . Great products are the objective, even
At the expense of time .

An SUV without AWD would not be quite right, an SUV without the extra kWh would
not be as attractive. These prerequisites were implicit, and they materialized . Now the
product will be way superior.

Ask a painter how long it will take to paint your house. If he exceeds the
time , but does a great job, is he shady?
 
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Yes, that's what he said.

But he also said the configurator would probably open in 3 months. 5 more days and if it doesn't happen and we can add it too to the growing list of 'things Elon has been too optimistic about'.

Please define 'probably', as it clearly means something entirely different to you.

Yep, that's exactly what is so amazing to me. How much Tesla gets away with in missed promises, misleiding presentations and other shady shenigans without any material impact on the stock price.

I said nothing of the sort. I clearly said, "I'm really okay with him being vague about a lot of things." That statement has less than zero reference to 'missed promises', 'misleading presentations', or 'shady shenanigans'. I haven't expressed any view on those because the CONTEXT of the discussion had to do SPECIFICALLY with the timing of the Model X design studio coming online. Although, we're likely not to agree on your additional points either.
 
Management quality is top tier. There's no need to debate it. The only person that matters is the CEO as his personality will eventually permeates the whole company.

Why is Elon top tier? Because when it comes time to make or break, he's the type of person who will choose to go in with everything he got and bankrupting himself vs the other CEOs who will decide to chapter 7. This personality prevented our shares from going to $0. The ither measures people are using on him doesn't matter as they are in the context of "TSLA >$200 and will it go to $300?"
 
You can put crappy products on time or put out polished products when they're ready. It's the Quality/Cost/Time triangle: choose any two, which determine the third. They have a high bar in quality, they've spent hugely already, so time must slip.

I'd much rather a quality product that people rave about than poor reviews and unhappy customers; other businesses seem to disagree.

Having bet and been burned by Elon's timelines previously, I now take his estimates and add a year.


Another way to think about the optimistic time estimates that Elon has doesn't come from project management at all - it comes from chaos theory and dynamic systems when dealing with complex cause and effect.

I claim that project management has a typically unstated and extraordinarily important assumption that the work being managed is sufficiently simple in its cause and effect dynamics that the nature of cause and effect is well understood - at the very least, by experts in the field. For cause and effect to be simple (well understood and widely agreed among both experts and non-experts), whatever it is needs to be something that has been done many times. My mental model for something that falls into this category is the building of a house - clearly many moving parts and a lot of details to get right, and yet it is reasonable to build a project plan before the first shovel of dirt is moved that describes the flow of different trades in and out of a job site, the timing of materials arrival at the job site, and to predict with very high accuracy when the house is complete and ready for move-in. There will be some variance within that plan and the completion, but we expect that variance to be percentage points - not multiples or even the wrong units.

Contrast that with a difficult software engineering project such as autonomous driving. There is nobody, anywhere, that has a fully productionalized and implemented version of that. As a species, we're still figuring out what all needs to be done to complete that "project" for the first time. Any project plan covering that project might be using the wrong unit of measure (decades instead of years, months instead of years - who knows?). We don't expect the same level of predictability in that project plan because its really more like a guidepost that indicates what people were thinking was needed at the point in time when it was created, rather than this particular teams plan for how they're going to do again for the umpteenth time something that people know how to do.


Model X and Model 3 lie somewhere between these two extremes. They are more like the building of a house in that there are many companies around the world design, engineering, and then manufacturing cars every year. To the extent that the Model X and Model 3 are JUST like any other car, we would expect a similar level of project performance from Tesla were Tesla a car company just like any other. To this extent, I currently rate Tesla as poor performing - activities that are routine for other car makers in design and engineering doesn't yet appear to be routine for Tesla.

To the extent that Model X and Model 3 are more like a unique software engineering project that has never been done, I rate Tesla as outstanding.

One measuring stick is to assume that Model X and 3 design and engineering are more like Electric than Gas vehicles - how does Tesla do at that compared to the rest of the industry? Very well when we consider only drivable, buyable vehicles. This latter criteria, in my mind, is the direct equivalent from the Agile Manifesto - "Working software is the best measure of progress". It's not the ONLY measure of progress, but its the best one. Partly because you have something tangible and specific to be learning from.


And this all comes back to learning, at least for me. Tesla is learning how to build things that nobody has yet built (at this quality, quantity, and performance level). Is there equivalent work that Tesla can be better at? I absolutely believe so, just as I believe there are plenty of areas for other car makers to get better at. The question in my mind is (1) is Tesla being shady or misleading with their time estimates and (2) who is going to learn faster and better?

For (1), I don't believe so. Actually, I'd never even thought of the possibility until it was mentioned in this thread. I work on these sorts of complex projects in a different industry - it is immensely frustrating to come up with a project plan of what you think is going to happen as of some point in time, and then later prove to be wrong both in number and unit about what would actually be needed. It's not deceitful - it's the nature of doing something that nobody, anywhere, knows exactly how to do what you're doing. Sidebar - I believe that we're going to see more and more of this kind of work in the Information Economy and we're going to need to get more comfortable with this kind of uncertainty (that's my opinion - doesn't mean I'm right).

I expect its frustrating to Tesla also to think something will be done at point in time X, and then later learn about the unknown unknowns when the X guess was created, and then need to alter the plan.

For (2), this one is easy for me - there is no car company in the world that I see being able to achieve and maintain a faster learning and optimization rate than Tesla. This includes for me, Apple, should they choose to enter the business and until I learn differently about what they are doing. There is no car company that I trust MORE than Tesla to identify things they aren't doing well, and learn from / optimize / improve on those things, and get better. If nothing else, other car companies will need to drop the antiquated "model year" idea because once/year refreshes means their cycle time is at most 1/365th of Tesla's.


In the end, I don't really see the Cost/Time/Quality triangle from project management as being all that relevant to what Tesla is doing. It's too new for anybody, and bringing assumptions from that world and trying to apply them to what Tesla is doing will generate a misleading analysis.
 
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