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[M109Rider]

Please post a single shred of evidence that cold damages Leaf batteries. Evidence, not feelings, in a Leaf. I get that it rustles your jimmies that a Leaf has better regen in the cold, but we're talking facts here.

The warranty goes until 2025 so I'm not too concerned and the next owner won't be either, likely the owner after that as well.

Well,
I don’t think you read my post carefully.

I said “potential unknown degradation “
We know cold temps can damage batteries under the right circumstances. Surely you know this also. I’m not going to copy links to something like this.

You said the next owner won’t be concerned about this either. Come on, really. I would be concerned how the battery was treated. So I can tell you new owners could be concerned.

My post wasnt about Regen, so your wrong there too.
It was about cold weather and damage to the battery.

 

[more863-also]

Oh my god, I so don't care about this. You win. My Leaf is actually very damaged by using it in cold weather despite a high SoH/Hx rating by LeafSpy. Take it up with Nissan if you don't like the FACT that the Leaf is less aggressive at throttling regen than the 3.

 

[BobAbooey]

Oh my god, I so don't care about this. You win. My Leaf is actually very damaged by using it in cold weather despite a high SoH/Hx rating by LeafSpy. Take it up with Nissan if you don't like the FACT that the Leaf is less aggressive at throttling regen than the 3.

I almost ordered the new Leaf, I think the car is amazing and is backed by a huge network of dealerships.

 

[Darthbenji]

Is there a situation where the car being left out in extreme cold will render it undriveable?

 

[M109Rider]

Oh my god, I so don't care about this. You win. My Leaf is actually very damaged by using it in cold weather despite a high SoH/Hx rating by LeafSpy. Take it up with Nissan if you don't like the FACT that the Leaf is less aggressive at throttling regen than the 3.

Holy dramatic.
Yikes.

 

[M109Rider]

Is there a situation where the car being left out in extreme cold will render it undriveable?

Based on the one video I saw of a guy in Norway using his car below -30 celcius, seems it will always drive.
It just may not charge right away, until it warms up.

 

[more863-also]

My issue is with not knowing what's going to happen when you lift off the accelerator. It's kinda annoying to have such variable regen as it's not this exteme on a Volt or Leaf.

And yes, I know Father Elon does it the one true way.

 

[mswlogo]

What I've always questioned is, when the battery is cold to the point of regen being disabled completely (model S will warn you of this condition when heading out), why doesn't the car use deceleration energy dumped it into a resistive heater (preferably - one that heats the battery, duh) rather than doing nothing with that energy but force you to waste it as friction braking?

Resistive heaters are cheap. They should have a couple, maybe 10kWatts worth, immersed in the coolant stream circulating through the battery. Redirect the regen energy to that if the battery can't take any because it's cold.

I think the resistive heater in car is about 5kW and is only air-to-air for cabin heating. Heck, when the snowflake comes on that's a good signal that it's going to be cold in the car too... so dumping deceleration inertia to the in cabin heater would be a bonus and offset the battery drain being used to heat the cabin.

These measures would have improved the cold mileage efficiency of the car for city driving, quite a bit.

Good ideas. They probably could do some of what you suggest in software. By using motors to heat generate heat.

But the most efficient thing to do with that deceleration energy might be to just coast (if it can’t be put back into the battery).

I personally don’t find lost regen that a big deal.

 

[Big Earl]

My issue is with not knowing what's going to happen when you lift off the accelerator. It's kinda annoying to have such variable regen as it's not this exteme on a Volt or Leaf.

And yes, I know Father Elon does it the one true way.

It indicates how much regen is available right there on the screen.

 

[more863-also]

It indicates how much regen is available right there on the screen.

Right, you need to read a display when the temperature is a bone chilling 45F to see if the car is going to work the way you expect. Most non-nerds won't appreciate that. And let's not even talk about snow tires randomly disabling regen with NO dots visible.

As long as I'm at mid SoC, my Leaf will full regen until far below freezing. Around 10F you will start to lose "bubbles" of regen.

 

[voip-ninja]

It indicates how much regen is available right there on the screen.

Actually it would be nice if Tesla would improve the way regen/charge-use was displayed on the Model 3. When you are in regen it's a tiny black squiggle and when you are using energy it's a tiny green squiggle.

I get they don't want to make it distracting or video game'ish but the large display for this in the Model S is far more intuitive and easier to see while driving than what they are doing in the Model 3.

 

[voip-ninja]

So we can precondition the battery via the app? Hmmmm

You should look at the date on the articles you share. That article dates from almost a year ago.

The Model S has a battery heater in it that is driven by the main battery pack. This can start pre-conditioning the battery before you even drive off.

The Model 3 does not have this feature. The battery is self-heated by way of operation, meaning that if the battery is cold, the output of the battery and the regen will be greatly limited to prevent cell damage until the battery can warm up.

Batteries naturally start to warm as they discharge.... the Model 3 has a battery coolant system and a passive paddle wheel system operated by the rear drive-shaft if I remember correctly.... so as you drive the car and the battery temp slowly rises the coolant system will distribute this heat to the rest of the pack warming it.

It can however take quite a bit of time. On my normal 10 mile commute when it is cold (under 50F) I always have limited regen for the entire length of the drive. Even on a 30 minute errand I ran when it was about 40F the battery never got up to full operating temperature. I imagine in really cold temperatures it would take a really long time to heat up, even at highway speeds.

 

[voip-ninja]

Right, you need to read a display when the temperature is a bone chilling 45F to see if the car is going to work the way you expect. Most non-nerds won't appreciate that. And let's not even talk about snow tires randomly disabling regen with NO dots visible.

As long as I'm at mid SoC, my Leaf will full regen until far below freezing. Around 10F you will start to lose "bubbles" of regen.

So maybe the Leaf is better in this regard than Tesla.... however, it is legitimately being pointed out that this is hard on the battery. Nissan warranting the battery is all well and good but you are still losing range faster than on the Tesla and if the Nissan suffers enough degradation then you get to leave it at the shop for a pack replacement for however long that will take.

Electric cars having more limitations in cold temperatures is pretty well known and will become only more well known as more and more consumers become exposed to them.

I drove in today with temperature outside of 19F. Regen was limited, which I noticed pretty quickly but I wouldn't say it was dangerous or that it ruined my ability to enjoy my car on the drive in.

 

[svp6]

Right, you need to read a display when the temperature is a bone chilling 45F to see if the car is going to work the way you expect.

No, you don't. In winter, you know there will be reduced regen when you start driving - car behaves much like an ICE vehicle in terms of braking, you figure this one out the first day of driving in lower temperature.

I get it that you feel frustrated the model 3 has more range, better handling, and more appeal than the Leaf, but there is no need to bash either cars.

 

[more863-also]

Lol, I Iiterally own both of them you absolute knob, I'm taking delivery next week.

My wife, specifically, hates lack of regen. She won't drive the Leaf unless it's been charged to an SoC that will allow full regen, which is hard because Leafs don't make that easy. I'm sure she'll make me try to prewarm the 3 as much as possible when it's her turn to drive it.

 

[svp6]

Lol, I Iiterally own both of them you absolute knob, I'm taking delivery next week.

My wife, specifically, hates lack of regen. She won't drive the Leaf unless it's been charged to an SoC that will allow full regen, which is hard because Leafs don't make that easy. I'm sure she'll make me try to prewarm the 3 as much as possible when it's her turn to drive it.

Congratulations, you will love the car. And you will see first hand that the less regen is a non-issue

 

[Big Earl]

You should look at the date on the articles you share. That article dates from almost a year ago.

The Model S has a battery heater in it that is driven by the main battery pack. This can start pre-conditioning the battery before you even drive off.

The Model 3 does not have this feature. The battery is self-heated by way of operation, meaning that if the battery is cold, the output of the battery and the regen will be greatly limited to prevent cell damage until the battery can warm up.

Batteries naturally start to warm as they discharge.... the Model 3 has a battery coolant system and a passive paddle wheel system operated by the rear drive-shaft if I remember correctly.... so as you drive the car and the battery temp slowly rises the coolant system will distribute this heat to the rest of the pack warming it.

It can however take quite a bit of time. On my normal 10 mile commute when it is cold (under 50F) I always have limited regen for the entire length of the drive. Even on a 30 minute errand I ran when it was about 40F the battery never got up to full operating temperature. I imagine in really cold temperatures it would take a really long time to heat up, even at highway speeds.

This is incorrect. The Model 3 does have battery heating, but not by way of a bespoke heater like the Model S & X. The 3 can heat the battery coolant loop by commanding the drive inverter to generate an inefficient wave form to the motor. This creates heat (up to 4 kW worth) but no propulsion. Battery heating will be enabled during pre-conditioning just like the S & X, according to the manual.

As for a passive paddle wheel system, this is also incorrect. There are gear oil pumps in each drive unit and heat exchangers that exchange heat between that gear oil and the battery cooling loop. This is the mechanism for transfering heat from the motors to the battery (or to the radiator for cooling).

 

[more863-also]

Is the heating started only when the battery is blue-lined, or does it start whenever temps are low enough to limit regen?

 

[voip-ninja]

This is incorrect. The Model 3 does have battery heating, but not by way of a bespoke heater like the Model S & X. The 3 can heat the battery coolant loop by commanding the drive inverter to generate an inefficient wave form to the motor. This creates heat (up to 4 kW worth) but no propulsion. Battery heating will be enabled during pre-conditioning just like the S & X, according to the manual.

As for a passive paddle wheel system, this is also incorrect. There are gear oil pumps in each drive unit and heat exchangers that exchange heat between that gear oil and the battery cooling loop. This is the mechanism for transfering heat from the motors to the battery (or to the radiator for cooling).

Thanks for the education.

 

[Big Earl]

Is the heating started only when the battery is blue-lined, or does it start whenever temps are low enough to limit regen?

Battery heating is only started below a certain threshold (I don't know the exact temperature on the Model 3), which is lower than when regen starts to get limited. Pre-heating will not completely restore regen that has been limited due to cold battery temperature.

I think - but can't confirm, as it hasn't gotten cold enough here - that battery heating will warm the battery enough to get rid of the blue battery limitation.