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Solar Roof Option

Would you select a solar roof if it were an option?


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Ok, fair enough, I should not have taken the math at face value. So yes I can see there will potentially be a day when the majority of open parking spaces may be covered and may have plugs. It's not going to happen during the lifespan of Model 3 V 1.0
 
It's okay. There was a time when that was the general sentiment of BEVs...to say nothing of the fact that even with Tesla's progress, many people still don't 'see it'

You can take it to the bank--there will be a day when some kind of onboard solar collection is ubiquitous.

The opposition to EVs was based on economics.

The opposition to onboard solar is based on physics.

Economics can change... physics not so much.
 
The opposition to EVs was based on economics..

I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm looking farther down the road. I agree that solar is pointless today. I agree that physics limits us to something significantly below a fully perpetual solar BEV.

Historically, EV progress was mostly technology limited (which we could argue is financial)...but you can say the same for solar collection today. Time will increase efficiency of harvesting (PV or otherwise), drive up the efficiency of vehicles and decrease the cost of both.

So what's your bogey?
 
Time will increase efficiency of harvesting (PV or otherwise), drive up the efficiency of vehicles and decrease the cost of both.

It's not about efficiency... it's about available resources... there simply isn't enough sunlight hitting the surface of a car to make it worth while. Even if you could harvest 100% of the energy it would still be barely worth while...
 
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We're going around and around now on the definition of "barely enough". Hence the "whats your bogey" question.

Certainly, the kWh or three that current technology might get today is not worth it, most pertinently because of the mass and cost impact (and then mostly cost to the finite engineering resources at tesla).

But what if technology could harvest 5-6 or even 8-10kwh/day and drive mass to negligible? That's not a physics problem, that's a technology problem. And at the same time what if technology drives BEV range to a reliable 5mi/kWh? Given that some BEVs are already close, that's pretty feasible too.

IMHO, that's more than 'barely enough'.
 
The opposition to EVs was based on economics.
Oh, my friend... you missed the big one! It was based on economics and ignorance.

The opposition to onboard solar is based on physics.
... and knowledge (but I guess that's assumed when sciences is involved). But you know what? This isn't really "opposition" - it is merely pointing out the current limits of reality.

To Mr. JRP3, I mention again: It isn't by shear misfortune and ignorance that no EV makers are including range extending PV in the roof of their cars.

One day this could happen. Today there's no reason to waste money on it. And I totally understand that you would rather have *this* useless option than the fancy paint useless option. But fancy paint garners great margins, and will be offered at every turn. Wasteful PV, not so much. PV is becoming incrementally better and cheaper every year, and we can all assume that EVs can become incrementally more efficient with advances in electronics, batteries, aerodynamics and policy (get rid of side-view mirrors, please!) At some point it may very well make sense to include a PV range extender in the roof - especially as it becomes cheaper and less resource intensive to make PV panels. These improvements will all come... but talking about this like it makes sense today is not getting us anywhere. Do you really think that nobody (Tesla!) has thought of this before?

There's your ocean. Here's your spoon.
 
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It's okay. There was a time when that was the general sentiment of BEVs
One has nothing to do with the other. The "general sentiment" against EVs was based in ignorance and came from people who had no clue. The challenges of range-extending PV are expressed by experts in the field. The Experts are making awesome EVs today. The experts are not including PV range extenders.

The ignorant think we should put generators on the wheels of EVs to extend their range. And they think that Hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go because H2 is the most common element in the universe... or that we can just fill a fuel cell car with water and let it run. Yes, these are the folks who thought BEVs would never be viable.

You can take it to the bank--there will be a day when some kind of onboard solar collection is ubiquitous.
I agree with you, though I've chosen to bank elsewhere. :)

....And this has very little to do with the subject of this thread.... which is wanting the option *today* when it is just a cute little expensive distraction that wastes resources.
 
Oh, my friend... you missed the big one! It was based on economics and ignorance.

... and knowledge (but I guess that's assumed when sciences is involved). But you know what? This isn't really "opposition" - it is merely pointing out the current limits of reality.

Sorry but there is no ignorance or lack of knowledge on my part, at all. There is only a different value placed by me on countering vampire drain and gaining a few miles each day. Simple as that. Even you seem to agree that at some point it makes sense, I just see the value before you do. Sort of the way early adopters of EV's saw the value before everyone else....
 
Germany sure doesn't have a problem with cloudy days and their solar infrastructure.

Most Americans drive around 20 miles a day, you're telling me you don't think people would not like roughly half their commute back (if we use your generous 19 km estimate) from free green energy?

In California, (one of the largest car markets) most of the cars are parked outside in very sunny weather. Sheltered parking spots are rare for the most part. How many rainy snowy days out of the year are there really going to be? 300? I'm dubious that there will be that many rainy days. Again, I point you back to Germany.

Taking this a step further, eventually, these cars with solar roofs (along with other BEV's could be connected to a vehicle to grid program wherein they could help load balance the grid during times of peak usage (which usually occur during the middle of the day in the summer) and prevent rolling blackouts.
If they're part of a V2G program then that means they are plugged in
8 miles a day is almost half a commute for the average American. Again, you don't think people would like almost half their commute back from free green energy? Shady parking spots are a premium and not widely available. Most people have to park in the sun. As I said a second ago, solar roofs in a vehicle to grid program along with other BEV's could totally modernize the grid.


Potentially is the key word. No major player is doing V2G. Tesla certainly has no interest at the moment. Better to put more panels on your house to charge your car. You don't need solar panels on the car to do a V2G anyway. Just a car with the capability and a willing energy provider.
 
There's... errors here... The entire US is 9.8M km²

Hey there.... better be careful using facts and mathematics in thread's so driven by Kool-Aid desires! Such threads are don't take kindly to your kind. ;)

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It's okay. There was a time when that was the general sentiment of BEVs...to say nothing of the fact that even with Tesla's progress, many people still don't 'see it'

You can take it to the bank--there will be a day when some kind of onboard solar collection is ubiquitous.

Well... I can't fault your optimism. But there are only so many photons coming from the sun and physics is physics. Unless solar radiation increases by an order of magnitude, then a solar roof cannot be of much use. And if it does increase by an order of magnitude... well, we've got bigger problems! :)
 
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10% efficiency is a different number for an EV vs ICE. A kWh generated from ICE for a hybrid is ~70% more valuable than a kWh in an EV. That's the irony... it makes more sense to but solar on a hybrid than a BEV.

I don't know about that. I know that my range take a significant hit in the summer. Well above 10%. If a solar roof could handle all the HVAC power needs, it would easily extend the range 10%
 
I don't know about that. I know that my range take a significant hit in the summer. Well above 10%. If a solar roof could handle all the HVAC power needs, it would easily extend the range 10%

A solar roof CAN'T handle the HVAC needs... here's the math;

The entire surface area of the car is <3 sq meters. In a perfect world that's ~600w of power... at noon... The HVAC consumes 1-3kW.

Any money invested in a solar roof would be better spent on a larger battery.

For some context.... the solar roof option for the Karma was 150w and cost $5k. That's not just a Gimmick... that's a scam.
 
A solar roof CAN'T handle the HVAC needs... here's the math;

The entire surface area of the car is <3 sq meters. In a perfect world that's ~600w of power... at noon... The HVAC consumes 1-3kW.

Any money invested in a solar roof would be better spent on a larger battery.

For some context.... the solar roof option for the Karma was 150w and cost $5k. That's not just a Gimmick... that's a scam.

Fisker wass built in 2012. Solar efficiency gets better every year. If you took the time to read the MT article I posted, you'd see that Toyota states it will power HVAC. How do you know how much power the HVAC will consume when the final specs of the mode 3 haven't been laid out?

Please check your math against Toyota as they've appeared to have figured out how to power the Prius AC with solar panes and are bringing it to production.
 
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Fisker wass built in 2012. Solar efficiency gets better every year. If you took the time to read the MT article I posted, you'd see that Toyota states it will power HVAC. How do you know how much power the HVAC will consume when the final specs of the mode 3 haven't been laid out?

Please check your math against Toyota as they've appeared to have figured out how to power the Prius AC with solar panes and are bringing it to production.

It powers a fan... not the compressor.
 
To some people.
Look at it this way, you could spend money on an expensive paint job to make your car look "cool", (subjective), or distinct, or you could do the same thing with solar panels, AND actually get something useful.
His point was that even with 100% efficiency, it's not worth it. Maybe there is a very specific circumstance in which it might be useful, but you're adding a good bit of complexity and so it depends on your goal. If you really just want to prove a point, and you have money burning a hole in your pocket, sure, go ahead. Realistically, if the goal is to further the progress of an EV, increase range, decrease environmental impacts, etc., then there are better avenues for that. It really just comes down to what your goal is.

To provide perspective, 40% efficiency is what NASA is capable of. And if it doesn't make sense at 100% efficiency, you're not going to get much at 40%.

Let's do some basic math, just to get a ballpark idea of what is possible. Let's say that the usable roof of a car for PV panels is 1 square meter. And let's assume you can get 20% efficiency (this is likely a stretch considering it isn't a flat surface). Every square meter gets about 1000 watts of solar energy at high noon on a clear day. Using the 20% efficiency rate, this means you can convert it to about 200 watts of power. If you figure 12 hours of sunlight, then on average with a standard distribution, you'll get 6 hours of full power. In this case, 200 watts times 6 hours is 1.2 kwh. If you have 10% efficiency (I think more likely for this surface), you'll get 0.6 kwh.

If the Model 3 comes with a 60 kwh battery, this would add 1% per day, on an average day. In the winters, it might be even less. And that 1% assumes no AC/DC conversion losses. We know that the Tesla Model S has lower efficiency when charging from a standard 110v plug (80% I believe) versus higher output plugs where you can get 95% efficiency. Given that this is even slower than 110v outlets, your effiency would drop more, call it to 60%. So your 1% per day could become more like 0.6% or 1.29 miles per day (0.6% times 215 rated miles).

While I have no doubt my math is simplified and wrong in many places, I don't believe there is any economic sense in putting a solar panel on your BEV unless you just want to do it as an experiment, because based on my math, you would only be adding about 1.29 miles per day of range to a Tesla Model 3. Maybe this is different for some, but in general, if your goal is to have clean energy, stick more solar panels in the middle of a field and connect them to a grid. Putting them on your car is way too indirect to help the environment or extend range. Honestly, for range purposes, you're better off using a 110V outlet for an hour per day.

Some data points came from this website: US Solar Insolation Maps