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Some exciting observations about the new Model S60 (software limited 75 kWh)

jbumps

Member
Mar 17, 2014
114
164
Morgantown, WV
I wish NH was a little more crowded. I have been to a charger four times and seen a total of zero other Tesla's whilst there. I wanna look inside an X.

While this isn't overly helpful now and I certainly would hope you'll get a look at one sooner - I'll be headed through the West Leb SC for Thanksgiving and would be happy to alert you to my ETA.
 

jbumps

Member
Mar 17, 2014
114
164
Morgantown, WV
I realize this isn't an ideal location for this question (search yielded nothing relevant) - how can a forum member 'react' to another's post? i.e. 'like', 'dislike' etc... I've been a member for a couple of years, but lack much activity as we hadn't become owners until ordering last week.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
 

jlanceho

Member
Jun 17, 2016
23
19
Rochester, NY
@Canuck, indeed, thinking more about it, I will just leave the charge slider in the 80% position for our daily drives in town nonetheless, which should keep charging cycles between displayed ~50% and 80% (so that's between ~40% and 64% actual charge then). The new S 60 offers enough range for our usage case that we do not have to worry about it anyway.

A more serious concern than battery life in the consideration of regenerative braking, because we live on a hill, which means every time we leave, we go downhill for about 1 km first. If I would charge to 100% (= actual 80%) and the software-limitation of the 75 kWh battery does not allow regenerative braking in that condition, I would have to go all the way down with using the actual brake, and that's really not what I have in mind.

Can someone with a new S 60 answer the following questions:
  1. Is it true, that regenerative braking does not work when fully charged (= 80% of the actual battery capacity)?
  2. Is generative braking fully working with a charge level of displayed 90% (= 72% of the actual battery capacity), or is generative braking limited in that condition the more the charge level is to displayed 100% (as it is with our Nissan LEAF)?
Of course I want what's best for the car, we have a very long holding period in mind.

I have a new S 60.

1. I have never tried charging to 100%, but I read somewhere else on this forum that regenerative braking does not work when fully charged. I believe the regenerative braking is software limited at 100% charge.

2. I charge to 98% to avoid limitation (1) above. I have not noticed any limitation to regenerative braking at 98% SOC.
 
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Master One

Member
Jun 19, 2016
69
32
Linz, Austria, Europe
I have a new S 60.
1. I have never tried charging to 100%, but I read somewhere else on this forum that regenerative braking does not work when fully charged. I believe the regenerative braking is software limited at 100% charge.
2. I charge to 98% to avoid limitation (1) above. I have not noticed any limitation to regenerative braking at 98% SOC.
It would be great if you (or someone else with a new S 60) could try (1) and maybe some other experiments.

For (2), that's interesting. Our Nissan LEAF does not even allow full recuperation through regenerative braking when around 90% battery charge. The LEAF has those double circles showing the level of regen braking with a max of 30 kWh on recuperation. Around 90% charge one or two of the double circles to the left are missing, hence it does not recuperate with 30 kWh any more, but only with less.

A Tesla can recuperate more with regen braking (up to 50 kWh?), so I would assume it also limits recuperation the higher the battery charge level is. Recharging the battery with up to 50 kWh from regen braking when at 98% charge definitely would not be healthy for the battery cells, but then again with the new S 60 a displayed 98% charge really is just 78.4% of the battery capacity.
 

hybridbear

Member
Oct 6, 2015
806
370
Minneapolis
There is just no point in limiting charging of a software-limited battery with a 15 kWh buffer even further. When the new S60 shows 100% it's actually 80%, that's definitely of no harm for battery life and good for daily charging. So I'll be charging whenever possible and alway till "full" (so 80% of the real total capacity), keeping the charging cycles small, which is way better for the battery than larger or full charging cycles. I am confident that I will not have to worry about premature battery degradation that way.
While it's true that 60 / 75 = 0.8, wouldn't it make sense on Tesla's part when limiting the 75 kWh battery to 60 kWh to increase the minimum SOC by 10% and decrease the maximum SOC by 10%? Do we have any authoritative information that the software limited 60 kWh car has the same lower SOC limit as the 75 kWh car? Since extremely low SOCs, and thus low cell voltages, put the cells at risk of degradation due to stress because of the lower cell voltage.
 

BigAirHarper

Member
Dec 27, 2013
277
200
Destin, FL
I realize this isn't an ideal location for this question (search yielded nothing relevant) - how can a forum member 'react' to another's post? i.e. 'like', 'dislike' etc... I've been a member for a couple of years, but lack much activity as we hadn't become owners until ordering last week.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

When logged in, you will see the variety of icons in grey at bottom right hand side of every post. Click icon for reaction you want to provide. HTH
 

jdw

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 1, 2015
703
1,401
Vancouver
While it's true that 60 / 75 = 0.8, wouldn't it make sense on Tesla's part when limiting the 75 kWh battery to 60 kWh to increase the minimum SOC by 10% and decrease the maximum SOC by 10%? Do we have any authoritative information that the software limited 60 kWh car has the same lower SOC limit as the 75 kWh car? Since extremely low SOCs, and thus low cell voltages, put the cells at risk of degradation due to stress because of the lower cell voltage.

I also wondered that, but also because the battery management system balancing is not triggered until ~93% charge on an unlimited battery. I suppose the balancing point could be adjusted when in 60kWh mode, but then there is also the "problem" of not allowing a stranded driver to actually use the 10% charge remaining ...

It would be interesting to know what portion of the battery is accessible and where battery balancing kicks in on 60/75kWh cars.
 
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Jlwine

Member
Jun 21, 2016
160
188
Indianapolis
I received my new Model S 60D last Wednesday--and I love it. When I ask a highly trusted Tesla employee (I will keep it generic) he told me that the official Tesla answer is not the same as the factual answer. The factual answer is yes you can charge to 100% daily as you are in fact only charging to 80% of the true 75kWz capacity. My experience backs this up, as I do not experience significant slow down in charging of the last 20% of the battery's 60 kWz "capacity." Also, I have not experienced any degradation in regen when fully charged to 100%.
 
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Yonki

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Mar 31, 2015
596
1,761
Pacific Grove, CA
Great observation/thread! Has anyone done a similar comparison of the 90kWh battery to the 85 to see if the 90 might actually be a software-limited 100?
 

Joostdz

Member
Jul 26, 2016
117
91
Netherlands
This is a great thread, I am almost ordering a Model S60(D) (in the Netherlands), but the fact that you can charge to 100% makes this a sweet deal, no need to spend extra on the 75.
 
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Master One

Member
Jun 19, 2016
69
32
Linz, Austria, Europe
Yeah, it was really bad. Sat in a X last Friday during The Tesla On The Road Event, they didn't let me drive it because X test drives were fully booked, but I immediately wanted one! Went completely nuts, played around with configurations on the mobile, envisioned bringing the kids to school with the falcon wing doors opening, called a leasing company for some offers, before reason came back. Our S just went in production the day before, and the X would clearly have gone over budget, mainly because we would have lost input tax reduction. The new S 60 is just great and a real bargain, the X 60D however suffers from the reduced range, so you clearly want to go for the X 90D. I love bargains, still going to do the X test drive though... :D
 

kaypay

Member
Aug 8, 2016
40
41
New Jersey
@privater: thanks for sharing your charging data.

I took the time and range values from your original post and threw them into Excel. Almost perfectly linear increase in range over time, but most importantly, very minimal tapering at the top end. Great news for new S60 / S60D owners.


charging.png
 

Kenriko

Former Vendor
May 5, 2016
1,050
1,398
Bay Area, Austin, Miami
Anyone who has worked with multiple battery packs (series or parallel) knows that you need to try and keep the battery levels as even as possible, discharge as even as possible and keep cycle count the same. Also take into account that the charge system can't just "ignore" that 15kwh as it needs to keep the cells charged and even to maintain them. Trust me, the full battery pack is being used just software capped when charging to 80%.
 
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