Some practical observations about the range of a 70D in winter

[AWDtsla]

A speed multiplied of 1.1 is not exceeding the speed limit by 10%. If you look at the details tab, a 1.1x multiplier is going faster than the average speed on the road by 10%. Not speed limit. Big difference here.

A multiplier of 1.1 is exceeding what it thinks the average speed of the road is by 10%. A piece of data which is deeply flawed, like apparently mixing in rush hour traffic to after hours traffic. Like I said, you have to look at the segment speeds and time your own trips.

 

[Max*]

The trip I told you about has a very long stretch on a 70mph road, btw. the multiplier I gave you only gets that to 78 mph, not even the minimum customary 10 over that everyone drives. However around here 80 in 65 is usually acceptable. If I drove that route normally, the speed multiplier would have been higher.

Have you looked at the details tab? Is it really just 78mph? The speed multiplier is not based on the speed limit.

A speed mutliplier of 1.0 gives 71mph on the NJTP. The speed limit is 65mph (that's just one random example)

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A multiplier of 1.1 is exceeding what it thinks the average speed of the road is by 10%. A piece of data which is deeply flawed, like apparently mixing in rush hour traffic to after hours traffic. Like I said, you have to look at the segment speeds and time your own trips.

I'm not sure what it mixes and how it mixes it to get to the average speeds.

 

[AWDtsla]

Have you looked at the details tab? Is it really just 78mph? The speed multiplier is not based on the speed limit.

A speed mutliplier of 1.0 gives 71mph on the NJTP. The speed limit is 65mph (that's just one random example)

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I'm not sure what it mixes and how it mixes it to get to the average speeds.

It's obviously not given the trip above has a 91.4 mile segment on a road that's mostly 70 mph posted speed limit and comes out to 68mph for the segment.

The multiplier MUST be adjusted to get to normal cruising speeds for every road I've tried so far. Like I said this data is coming from some flawed source, as such your experience my vary.

REGARDLESS, this conversation is deep in a rat hole. An example was asked for, and an example was given, and that example did not include speeding past the normal speed of traffic.

 

[Cottonwood]

So again, if the 70D is anything like the 60, and I speculate that it is, the math for the rated wh/mi you used is incorrect. And it's much closer to 290wh/mi than it is to 250wh/mi.

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A speed multiplied of 1.1 is not exceeding the speed limit by 10%. If you look at the details tab, a 1.1x multiplier is going faster than the average speed on the road by 10%. Not speed limit. Big difference here.

To get the internal Wh/rated mile on any Model S or X, do the following:

• Start with a fresh, reasonable charge. Record the rated miles in the battery as you start the drive.
• Drive continuously for 100 miles or more, without stopping. You want the entire trip to show up in the current trip item, at the top of the trips screen.
• Pull up the actual Wh/mi from the trip screen for that drive, immediately after the drive ends, before you exit the car. Record the actual Wh/actual mile, actual miles driven, and rated miles remaining.
• Calculate the rated miles used by subtracting the rated miles remaining in the battery from the rated miles at the start of the trip.
• Calculate Wh/rated mile as Wh/actual mile times actual miles driven, divided by rated miles used.

EV Trip Planner uses the speed multiplier as a multiplier of average speed on each segment of the drive. "Ratio of your driving speed to average for the road" is displayed when you hover your cursor over that item.

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Update: It says "Ratio of your driving speed to average for the road", but a couple of tests that I just did seem to show a ratio of the speed limit. I know it used to use a ratio of average speeds in the past. Hmmmm...

Use the "details" tab to see the speed on each segment of the drive.

 

[Max*]

To get the internal Wh/rated mile on any Model S or X, do the following:

• Start with a fresh, reasonable charge. Record the rated miles in the battery as you start the drive.
• Drive continuously for 100 miles or more, without stopping. You want the entire trip to show up in the current trip item, at the top of the trips screen.
• Pull up the actual Wh/mi from the trip screen for that drive, immediately after the drive ends, before you exit the car. Record the actual Wh/actual mile, actual miles driven, and rated miles remaining.
• Calculate the rated miles used by subtracting the rated miles remaining in the battery from the rated miles at the start of the trip.
• Calculate Wh/rated mile as Wh/actual mile times actual miles driven, divided by rated miles used.

Thanks, I'll need to remember this next time I take a trip to do the math.

 

[bhzmark]

Turn on range mode and the seat heaters and turn off the cabin heat.

 

[David29]

• Why aren't you preheating on shore power so you don't take the hit when you first leave?

To respond to this point, only -- I am not currently able to charge at home, which is a whole separate issue. (I had not wanted to get into this topic in this post.) But -- Even if I could charge at home, that would help for trips that start at home, but not so much for trips that involve multiple stops. It is not uncommon for me to go somewhere, stay a half-hour or an hour, and then leave again. Unless I can plug in and preheat at other people's houses and at church and at stores, the battery takes a hit as it warms the cabin.

But yes, my numbers definitely would be somewhat better if I did charge at home and could preheat from shore power. (I am working on that but it isn't solved yet. :smile:

• Climate doesn't factor into the wh / mile reading you see so you're actually getting even worse range than you think.

• The wh/mile figures I gave were not what was displayed on the screen. I calculated that from the actual kWh of charge and the miles driven, so it does take into account all energy used by the car, including for heat, lights, etc.

 

[yobigd20]

I also have the 70D and live in upstate NY so I experience similar weather...

The problem with your range assessment is that using your energy consumption for short trips and then just applying that to the range you'd expect is a pretty flawed way to calculate the the rated range you would experience. I take some pretty regular longer trips 30-50 miles and my consumption is no where near 547Wh/mi. Even on some single digit temperature days I experienced what I would consider very reasonable consumption 350-400WH/mi. Once you get beyond the high consumption battery warming phase I've found that the consumption drops back down.

Just yesterday I left the house at 90% charge, drove Ithaca to Syracuse (50mi) in 20degree weather, parked outside for 4hours, and then drove back home with plenty of range remaining.

My trip was logged on TeslaLog outside temperature was 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit:
13:19 - 14:32 - Lake Ave, Ithaca, NY - 60.2Miles 397.5Wh/mi - ODO 4252

08:31 - 09:36 - Harborside Dr, Syracuse, NY - 57Miles 357.3Wh/mi - ODO 4192

last saturday from outside syracuse (skaneateles) to cortland for me I averaged about 650Wh/mi over that 30 mile drive, and that was only going about 35-40mph. it was like -10 degrees out. cold weather absolutely kills range. also i almost used an entire 100% charge just to get from binghamton to allentown which is only 130 miles...

 

[AWDtsla]

Turn on range mode and the seat heaters and turn off the cabin heat.

Leave the car home, walk there, t-shirt and shorts only. Infinite Wh/mile, maximum frostbite

 

[sorka]

It varies widely by road. You have to either look at the segment mph numbers, or do what I do - do the trip, make the speed multiplier match exactly the trip duration.

The trip I told you about has a very long stretch on a 70mph road, btw. the multiplier I gave you only gets that to 78 mph, not even the minimum customary 10 over that everyone drives. However around here 80 in 65 is usually acceptable. If I drove that route normally, the speed multiplier would have been higher.


You're totally missing the part about short trips an warm-up costs, and that I've said repeatedly that evtriplanner does not take warm-up costs into account.

I just did a 16 hour usage analysis on my car.. I believe the dash is in the 500Wh/mi range. My calculated rate is 936 Wh/mi. So again, his usage is not out of line.

I just skied in 10 degree weather. I was parked and plugged. We pre-heated and warmed the battery up while plugged in. When left, our consumption wasn't any higher at the start than it was for the rest of the trip.

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It's obviously not given the trip above has a 91.4 mile segment on a road that's mostly 70 mph posted speed limit and comes out to 68mph for the segment.

The multiplier MUST be adjusted to get to normal cruising speeds for every road I've tried so far. Like I said this data is coming from some flawed source, as such your experience my vary.

REGARDLESS, this conversation is deep in a rat hole. An example was asked for, and an example was given, and that example did not include speeding past the normal speed of traffic.

Around here, 1x is getting me the speed limit or oddly a little more than the speed limit which I didn't realize before. This is why I usually do better than evtripplanner when I travel the speed limit and use 1.0 x.

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To respond to this point, only -- I am not currently able to charge at home, which is a whole separate issue. (I had not wanted to get into this topic in this post.) But -- Even if I could charge at home, that would help for trips that start at home, but not so much for trips that involve multiple stops. It is not uncommon for me to go somewhere, stay a half-hour or an hour, and then leave again. Unless I can plug in and preheat at other people's houses and at church and at stores, the battery takes a hit as it warms the cabin.

But yes, my numbers definitely would be somewhat better if I did charge at home and could preheat from shore power. (I am working on that but it isn't solved yet. :smile:
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[*]The wh/mile figures I gave were not what was displayed on the screen. I calculated that from the actual kWh of charge and the miles driven, so it does take into account all energy used by the car, including for heat, lights, etc.
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Ahh. Not being able to charge at home is certainly an issue. Townhose, condo, or house?

Also, a half hour stop won't be long enough to cool the battery down a lot so you're quick stops shouldn't show as much drain as when you take off after sitting over need in 10F weather.

 

[AWDtsla]

I just skied in 10 degree weather. I was parked and plugged. We pre-heated and warmed the battery up while plugged in. When left, our consumption wasn't any higher at the start than it was for the rest of the trip.

This is cheating, basically. Plus you arrived in a warm battery, then left with a shore powered warm battery back to warm weather? No surprise here. If you can plug in everywhere you need to go, great.

Around here, 1x is getting me the speed limit or oddly a little more than the speed limit which I didn't realize before. This is why I usually do better than evtripplanner when I travel the speed limit and use 1.0 x.

Travel the speed limit. Might as well jab a fork through my eye instead. :frown:

 

[RAW84]

I'll just add that living in the region, I see data consistent with the OP in my P85D.

Having bought the car in December 2014, and getting it serviced in January 2016, I feel confident the car is fine (no alignment issue)..it's the cold weather and short trips that drive up the energy usage. Significantly.

 

[sorka]

This is cheating, basically. Plus you arrived in a warm battery, then left with a shore powered warm battery back to warm weather? No surprise here. If you can plug in everywhere you need to go, great.

Not sure why it's cheating. The OP's major problem is he can't charge at home and leave with an already warmed up car before dipping into his range. I wouldn't have bought a Model S under those conditions.

Travel the speed limit. Might as well jab a fork through my eye instead. :frown:

Why not 1.1x? 1.2x is excessively speeding. If you want to do that, then you'll suffer lower economy whether you're in a BEV or ICE.

 

[AWDtsla]

Not sure why it's cheating. The OP's major problem is he can't charge at home and leave with an already warmed up car before dipping into his range. I wouldn't have bought a Model S under those conditions.

Because your line of thought is that range is the only thing that matters. So the car is still pulling huge power except you are storing it in the thermal mass of the car. The car still ends up being really inefficient. Additionally it makes the assumption that you always have somewhere to plug in when it is cold, which if that were true, we could all be driving Leaf's around. Further more, the trip meters SHOULD include this usage. We're saving the planet here right? Who does it help to hide this massive energy drain? Oh Tesla....

Why not 1.1x? 1.2x is excessively speeding. If you want to do that, then you'll suffer lower economy whether you're in a BEV or ICE.

You can argue back and forth about this all day long. For the trip I showed you 1.1-1.2x is keeping up with normal traffic. You'd get pulled over for going suspiciously slow at 1x, or become a road rage victim. No one has ever worried about ICE range at high speed in 100 years, so this is a logical fallacy and no need to ever state it again. It also has nothing to do with Model S winter range.

 

[sorka]

Because your line of thought is that range is the only thing that matters. So the car is still pulling huge power except you are storing it in the thermal mass of the car. The car still ends up being really inefficient. Additionally it makes the assumption that you always have somewhere to plug in when it is cold, which if that were true, we could all be driving Leaf's around. Further more, the trip meters SHOULD include this usage. We're saving the planet here right? Who does it help to hide this massive energy drain? Oh Tesla....

Huge power? Really? Even when it's really cold outside, it doesn't take that much to prep my car while it's in my garage. More if I couldn't park it inside. But yes, I think range is the most important factor here. In the winter, it will take more power for a BEV just like an ICE will take more gasoline.

I never made the assumption that I could plug in at every destination. I made the assumption that overnight I could plug in and that I'd leave in toasty warm interior and warm battery car. If I drive somewhere to run an errand and I'm stopped for an hour, the battery is not going to cool down that much between stops.

I'm sorry that you either have to speed at 1.2x everywhere or that you can't park your car in a garage at night and prep it in the morning, but you knew what you were getting into when you bought it.

You can argue back and forth about this all day long. For the trip I showed you 1.1-1.2x is keeping up with normal traffic. You'd get pulled over for going suspiciously slow at 1x, or become a road rage victim. No one has ever worried about ICE range at high speed in 100 years, so this is a logical fallacy and no need to ever state it again. It also has nothing to do with Model S winter range.

For the trip you showed me, you stacked a worse case scenario with a one way trip with a significant elevation climb and temperatures of 10F when the average low (middle of the night for January in Boston is 22F and the average high in January is high is 36). If you take the same example and speed by 10% over and use the average temperature for january, you end up with evtripplanner predicting 369 wh / mile. This is not in the 500s or 700s. Not even close.

I could believe you'd get into the 500s or 700s if you don't park in a garage and you'r battery gets to 20 degress over night and you do a bunch of short 20 mile trips. But if that's the case, you have all the worst case conditions for owning a model S in a cold climate stacked against you.

 

[AWDtsla]

I'm sorry that you either have to speed at 1.2x everywhere or that you can't park your car in a garage at night and prep it in the morning, but you knew what you were getting into when you bought it.

Still missing the point, perhaps on purpose. If you have enough range to get through your day, not parking it in a garage and plugged in loses you absolutely nothing. All you're doing is changing what the trip meter claims is the energy consumption. Offloading that consumption to either your electric bill or your source of heating. Hear no evil see no evil?

For the trip you showed me, you stacked a worse case scenario with a one way trip with a significant elevation climb and temperatures of 10F when the average low (middle of the night for January in Boston is 22F and the average high in January is high is 36). If you take the same example and speed by 10% over and use the average temperature for january, you end up with evtripplanner predicting 369 wh / mile. This is not in the 500s or 700s. Not even close.

LOL no it's not the worst case scenario. I've done that trip on 0F days to go snowboarding. Obviously not in a Tesla, and not anytime soon. Cold and snowy days are the only ones I'd be interested in making that trip. Your rationalizing isn't helping anyone. Especially when the consequences of not planning for the "worst case" are being stranded on the side of the road in dangerously cold temperatures.

I could believe you'd get into the 500s or 700s if you don't park in a garage and you'r battery gets to 20 degress over night and you do a bunch of short 20 mile trips. But if that's the case, you all the worst case conditions for owning a model S in a cold climate stacked against you.

I park in heated garage and am often plugged in at work before I leave, and I'm still in that range.. All... the... time...

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You can't break the laws of thermodynamics by plugging in.

 

[sorka]

Still missing the point, perhaps on purpose. If you have enough range to get through your day, not parking it in a garage and plugged in loses you absolutely nothing. All you're doing is changing what the trip meter claims is the energy consumption. Offloading that consumption to either your electric bill or your source of heating. Hear no evil see no evil?

If you're parked in a garage, then you shouldn't need much power to pre-heat your car and warm your battery. It's more efficient to heat the car directly off shore power than to charge the battery and then use that while your driving to heat the car. I didn't miss the point.

LOL no it's not the worst case scenario.

But it's pretty close and way worse than the average case in January when temps are lowest.

I park in heated garage and am often plugged in at work before I leave, and I'm still in that range.. All... the... time...

Good for you. If that's the case, I think there's something wrong with your car. But if you want to look the other way "Hear no evil see no evil?"

 

[Asciidv]

Is there any table showing the power consumption of the accessory electrical devices;

Cabin heater
Heated Seats
Front windscreen
Rear windscreen

and of a lesser importance,

Headlights.

My S90D is two weeks old, and I charge at work rather than home. So in the mornings before I leave for work I have to make the decision whether to drive to work in the cold ( typically around 35 F at the moment ) or ignore range and have a nice heated cabin!

The cabin heater must be at least 2kW?

 

[AWDtsla]

If you're parked in a garage, then you shouldn't need much power to pre-heat your car and warm your battery. It's more efficient to heat the car directly off shore power than to charge the battery and then use that while your driving to heat the car. I didn't miss the point.

This is wrong. It is not more efficient, it just doesn't (mostly) use battery range.

But it's pretty close and way worse than the average case in January when temps are lowest.

You don't don't go snowboarding when the temp is average. You go when there is snow. Doesn't matter you don't have a justification here anyway despite a dubious line of thinking. "Don't drive the Tesla on all the cold days" is NOT an acceptable answer, but it is the current answer. Average is irrelevant.

Good for you. If that's the case, I think there's something wrong with your car. But if you want to look the other way "Hear no evil see no evil?"

I have ample evidence above as to why this is not the case. You're just in denial about what living with the car is actually like in places where the weather isn't awesome all the time.

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Is there any table showing the power consumption of the accessory electrical devices;

Cabin heater
Heated Seats
Front windscreen
Rear windscreen

and of a lesser importance,

Headlights.

My S90D is two weeks old, and I charge at work rather than home. So in the mornings before I leave for work I have to make the decision whether to drive to work in the cold ( typically around 35 F at the moment ) or ignore range and have a nice heated cabin!

The cabin heater must be at least 2kW?

No, and 6.6kW. Everything is negligible compared to the draw of the pack and the cabin heater.

 

[sorka]

Is there any table showing the power consumption of the accessory electrical devices;

Cabin heater
Heated Seats
Front windscreen
Rear windscreen

and of a lesser importance,

Headlights.

My S90D is two weeks old, and I charge at work rather than home. So in the mornings before I leave for work I have to make the decision whether to drive to work in the cold ( typically around 35 F at the moment ) or ignore range and have a nice heated cabin!

The cabin heater must be at least 2kW?

The streaming API will show consumption in KW integer ranges. Not sure how it rounds up or down.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then use an app like Powertools for iOS.

Turning on heat max and AC with range mode off draws between 6 and 7 KW.

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This is wrong. It is not more efficient, it just doesn't (mostly) use battery range.

It's not wrong and it is more efficient. You don't get out of the battery what you put in. There's an overhead that you don't incur if you heat directly from shore power.

You don't don't go snowboarding when the temp is average. You go when there is snow. Doesn't matter you don't have a justification here anyway despite a dubious line of thinking. "Don't drive the Tesla on all the cold days" is NOT an acceptable answer, but it is the current answer. Average is irrelevant.

Um, yea, because you go snow boarding every day and that is your typical driving pattern in January. Suuuurrrrrree (Dr Evil).

I have ample evidence above as to why this is not the case. You're just in denial about what living with the car is actually like in places where the weather isn't awesome all the time.

I've seen no evidence by you that isn't simply half truths and twisted facts.

My last ski trip in my P85D was 309 wh / mile average for the entire trip. That is a fact.