Tell that to my season passes.
Good for you. Not happening for anyone in this part of the country.
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After I started this thread, I ran across a series of videos on YouTube by a fellow who flies by the name of Tesla EVangelist. He also has a 70D and has done some great videos about driving in winter. The one linked below provides some stats he generated that show how the energy used varies with heater use. Folks with an interest could check them out.
Tesla 70D Energy use: 75mph and COLD - YouTube
He also has a video about a long trip across the US he took this winter. It is a two part series and quite long. He summarizes his lessons learned in this video:
Lessons from a long Tesla 70D winter road trip - YouTube
Enjoy!
Tesla 70D Energy use: 75mph and COLD - YouTube
He also has a video about a long trip across the US he took this winter. It is a two part series and quite long. He summarizes his lessons learned in this video:
Lessons from a long Tesla 70D winter road trip - YouTube
Enjoy!
It's been really cold in my area recently as well with temperature frequently in the low 30's and dipping into the 20's. It's pretty unusually cold for the border of SC/NC but I have also thus had some recent experience with driving Tesla in the cold (70D)...
My conclusion based on observation is that it's all cabin heating... When I drive short distances, say it's 32 degrees and I pull out of the garage (company unheated, so 32 degrees in car) and just drive 3-5 miles, I would get 420+ (like highest I saw after 3 miles was 470's). If that's all you do for your regular drives, short distances after the car is cooled, and having to heat up all over again, then you ll have really high energy usage.
It gets better on longer distances. Again say 32 degrees, out of garage cold, commute in traffic, 40-50 mins, avg maybe 30mph (but lots of acceleration and stopping), I see mid to high 300's, say 350 to 370. Basically the initial heating is over so it's able to average more of the energy used for heating over longer distance.
I actually tired once where I didn't use heating at all in 30 degree temp (heat the car to 75 before leaving), then drove 30 miles in no traffic, on a cloudy day. Cruising speed was maybe between 65-70 (I set to 70 but didn't change lane if a truck is on front of me; truck usually goes 70 on slight downhill but 60's on uphill). The 30 mile energy usage was I think around 280 or below... similar to what I get in the summer...
Therefore my conclusion is, almost all that energy is being used to heat the cabin... basically EV cabin heating is inefficient... and there's no way around that...
Maybe future EVs will have a small motor for both heating and power generation.
My conclusion based on observation is that it's all cabin heating... When I drive short distances, say it's 32 degrees and I pull out of the garage (company unheated, so 32 degrees in car) and just drive 3-5 miles, I would get 420+ (like highest I saw after 3 miles was 470's). If that's all you do for your regular drives, short distances after the car is cooled, and having to heat up all over again, then you ll have really high energy usage.
It gets better on longer distances. Again say 32 degrees, out of garage cold, commute in traffic, 40-50 mins, avg maybe 30mph (but lots of acceleration and stopping), I see mid to high 300's, say 350 to 370. Basically the initial heating is over so it's able to average more of the energy used for heating over longer distance.
I actually tired once where I didn't use heating at all in 30 degree temp (heat the car to 75 before leaving), then drove 30 miles in no traffic, on a cloudy day. Cruising speed was maybe between 65-70 (I set to 70 but didn't change lane if a truck is on front of me; truck usually goes 70 on slight downhill but 60's on uphill). The 30 mile energy usage was I think around 280 or below... similar to what I get in the summer...
Therefore my conclusion is, almost all that energy is being used to heat the cabin... basically EV cabin heating is inefficient... and there's no way around that...
Maybe future EVs will have a small motor for both heating and power generation.
If you cold soak long enough at 32F you will also see a large drain from the battery heater, unless range mode is on.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
This is interesting from my perspective, and eventually I will have my own stats to add to the discussion. For my regular business trips, I feel I should limit myself only to the larger batteries, but I've wondered since the 70 was introduced if I could get by okay with a 70.
Here's what my typical business trip looks like (typically once a week). Starting out, I can preheat the car while plugged in. I then drive about 122 miles to the place I usually stay at, and stay there overnight. There is no where to plug in overnight, and the parking spot is outside. It's then about 10 more miles in the morning to get to the office (or 10 miles to the supercharger, if I were to supercharge before work in the morning, but that's not my preference). The ideal time to charge is after work, which is maybe a 5 mile trip from the office to the Supercharger. Also note, there is no place to plug in at the office. I wonder how close I would be cutting it with a 70 in the winter (122 miles, overnight no plug in, 10 miles to office, no plug in, then 5 miles after work to supercharger). The overnight without plugging in is the big unknown. How much range will that kill? If I have to, I could charge immediately after getting there, but that would suck, because it would add an extra 20 miles (and probably about 50 minutes) to the trip getting there.
Note also that I'm looking at getting an 85 CPO based on my budget, but without too much delay, I could maybe consider a new 70 (or 70D, though either way I would have to sacrifice some options to stay on budget). That's where the decision comes into play.
Here's what my typical business trip looks like (typically once a week). Starting out, I can preheat the car while plugged in. I then drive about 122 miles to the place I usually stay at, and stay there overnight. There is no where to plug in overnight, and the parking spot is outside. It's then about 10 more miles in the morning to get to the office (or 10 miles to the supercharger, if I were to supercharge before work in the morning, but that's not my preference). The ideal time to charge is after work, which is maybe a 5 mile trip from the office to the Supercharger. Also note, there is no place to plug in at the office. I wonder how close I would be cutting it with a 70 in the winter (122 miles, overnight no plug in, 10 miles to office, no plug in, then 5 miles after work to supercharger). The overnight without plugging in is the big unknown. How much range will that kill? If I have to, I could charge immediately after getting there, but that would suck, because it would add an extra 20 miles (and probably about 50 minutes) to the trip getting there.
Note also that I'm looking at getting an 85 CPO based on my budget, but without too much delay, I could maybe consider a new 70 (or 70D, though either way I would have to sacrifice some options to stay on budget). That's where the decision comes into play.
Conditions/weather and speed certainly matter. Reporting stats from a little trip yesterday on a warm day in NC, just for comparison to winter:
Temps: Garage 55*F, Outside 65*F, in car 72*F, no preheating, radio, no seat warmers, 50% interstate at 75 mph, 30% other highways at 50-55mph, 20% in town. Two stops -- 40" and 3 hours. Short trip so no energy saving techniques.
Consumption = 72.7 actual miles, 81 rated miles, 21.6 kWh, 297 Wh/mi.
Total since 12/4/15 delivery = 3,001 actual miles, 946.1 kWh, 315 Wh/mi.
Temps: Garage 55*F, Outside 65*F, in car 72*F, no preheating, radio, no seat warmers, 50% interstate at 75 mph, 30% other highways at 50-55mph, 20% in town. Two stops -- 40" and 3 hours. Short trip so no energy saving techniques.
Consumption = 72.7 actual miles, 81 rated miles, 21.6 kWh, 297 Wh/mi.
Total since 12/4/15 delivery = 3,001 actual miles, 946.1 kWh, 315 Wh/mi.
For what its worth... a while back I started a thread as I was trying to decide if a 70D would meet my needs in Minnesota. Now that I have the 70D I have been reporting on our cold weather driving starting here:
70D and Winter Performance/Range - Page 9 - One sub zero trip at 432 wH/mile and another 34F trip (70+ mph) at 337 wH/mile.
@skotty... based on my experience and the above stats I would speculate you'd be just fine in a 70D.
70D and Winter Performance/Range - Page 9 - One sub zero trip at 432 wH/mile and another 34F trip (70+ mph) at 337 wH/mile.
@skotty... based on my experience and the above stats I would speculate you'd be just fine in a 70D.
Another data point is my 70D in chicago this winter.
Typical drive is 16 miles to work, 16 miles home + 15 miles to gym/errands, 13 miles home or approximately 60 miles a day. I prewarm my car before the start of the day but the rest of the driving is done after a few hours cold.
I cabin is left at ~ 72 oF until I'm warm then i turn it off for 80% of the trip.
Range mode off... my friend decided to track energy use for fun:
When weather was between <20oF energy use = 343 wH/mi
Weather is >20oF energy use = 305 wH/mile
For reference from June - September the same driving pattern energy usage = 283 wH/mi
Typical drive is 16 miles to work, 16 miles home + 15 miles to gym/errands, 13 miles home or approximately 60 miles a day. I prewarm my car before the start of the day but the rest of the driving is done after a few hours cold.
I cabin is left at ~ 72 oF until I'm warm then i turn it off for 80% of the trip.
Range mode off... my friend decided to track energy use for fun:
When weather was between <20oF energy use = 343 wH/mi
Weather is >20oF energy use = 305 wH/mile
For reference from June - September the same driving pattern energy usage = 283 wH/mi
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Here is some detail, but for those who want to consider the basics, here goes.
Both EV and ICE cars want to warm up the cabin and the operating components for efficient/comfortable operation. In the EV, it is the cabin and battery that need to be warmed up; in the ICE, it is the cabin and the engine/oil that need to be warmed up. The huge difference is that an EV is almost 90% efficient transferring energy from the battery to motive energy, while the ICE is less than 20% efficient converting chemical energy in the fuel to motive energy.
Therefore the EV only has about 10% waste heat to warm up the car, while the ICE has more than 80% waste heat for warming the car. That is 8x more waste heat for warming in the ICE vs the EV. In weather much colder than 10˚ C., 50˚ F., that means that the EV has to use extra energy from the battery for warming, rather than for motive power. While driving in steady state, the penalty is noticeable, but not horrible, but each warmup cycle costs a lot for each trip. As @jerry33 implied, Range Mode "on" reducing the amount of power dedicated to battery warming. If you warm up on shore power, this does not show up on the car's energy calcs, but still costs energy from the wall. If you warm up from the car's battery while in the "on" state, it shows up on the car's meters. The in-between case is when you use the App to pre-heat the car. In that case, you see the loss of rated miles in the car, but it does not show up on the car's meters.
The best is to start in a warm garage. I have the best of all worlds at my Pagosa house. The garage is excavated out of the hillside, is super insulated above ground, and has a small thermal connection to the heated house. In the winter, it stays at 10˚ C., 50˚ F. without any additional heat; in the summer, it never gets above 16˚ C., 61˚ F. with no air conditioning.
I welcome comments and corrections; as if I had to ask on TMC... :biggrin:
Both EV and ICE cars want to warm up the cabin and the operating components for efficient/comfortable operation. In the EV, it is the cabin and battery that need to be warmed up; in the ICE, it is the cabin and the engine/oil that need to be warmed up. The huge difference is that an EV is almost 90% efficient transferring energy from the battery to motive energy, while the ICE is less than 20% efficient converting chemical energy in the fuel to motive energy.
Therefore the EV only has about 10% waste heat to warm up the car, while the ICE has more than 80% waste heat for warming the car. That is 8x more waste heat for warming in the ICE vs the EV. In weather much colder than 10˚ C., 50˚ F., that means that the EV has to use extra energy from the battery for warming, rather than for motive power. While driving in steady state, the penalty is noticeable, but not horrible, but each warmup cycle costs a lot for each trip. As @jerry33 implied, Range Mode "on" reducing the amount of power dedicated to battery warming. If you warm up on shore power, this does not show up on the car's energy calcs, but still costs energy from the wall. If you warm up from the car's battery while in the "on" state, it shows up on the car's meters. The in-between case is when you use the App to pre-heat the car. In that case, you see the loss of rated miles in the car, but it does not show up on the car's meters.
The best is to start in a warm garage. I have the best of all worlds at my Pagosa house. The garage is excavated out of the hillside, is super insulated above ground, and has a small thermal connection to the heated house. In the winter, it stays at 10˚ C., 50˚ F. without any additional heat; in the summer, it never gets above 16˚ C., 61˚ F. with no air conditioning.
I welcome comments and corrections; as if I had to ask on TMC... :biggrin:
I suspect that will be pushing it if it gets below freezing where you park at work.
I drive about 150 miles a day in my 85D. 55 miles to work, then a longer route home with several stops. I used just shy of 60kwh today with a high temp of 30F. Last week when highs were in the single digits I was using >60kwh each day.
You're going to get killed on that 10 mile leg because the battery heater is going to dump a lot of energy into the battery for nothing. Range mode on will help with that.
tinm
2020 Model S LR+ Owner
Setting aside all the heating problems I've had with my car since Thanksgiving, I've found, especially in 9F weather here in NM, that it pays to take a half-hour or even an hour to heat the car before driving. (My car's heater is extreeeeeeeeeemely slow at getting heat going... pumps out cold air for a long time before warming up.) In the bitter cold mornings I'd turn the heater on, temp set to HI, and let it just blow into the cabin while car's parked in garage for a good lonnnnnnng time, while plugged into the HPWC. The car senses it's plugged in, so it draws from the grid rather than the battery. This really saves on Wh/mi numbers once I'm rolling.
I also tend to go overboard in terms of preserving battery, at the expense of comfort, so once rolling I tend to turn the heat OFF, and then set the driver's seat to 3, then after 5 min, 2, then after a few more min 1. Keeps things tolerable for maybe 20 min, after which time I turn the heat on HI and full for a few mins to warm things up again. Then shut 'em all down and repeat the process. This keeps the Wh/mi to more reasonable levels. If I don't do this, I see high 400 Wh/mi numbers pretty quickly. Sometimes into the 500s. And I have an S85.
I also tend to go overboard in terms of preserving battery, at the expense of comfort, so once rolling I tend to turn the heat OFF, and then set the driver's seat to 3, then after 5 min, 2, then after a few more min 1. Keeps things tolerable for maybe 20 min, after which time I turn the heat on HI and full for a few mins to warm things up again. Then shut 'em all down and repeat the process. This keeps the Wh/mi to more reasonable levels. If I don't do this, I see high 400 Wh/mi numbers pretty quickly. Sometimes into the 500s. And I have an S85.
If this is without range mode off then you should have Tesla fix it. If it is with range mode on, that's your problem. Electric heat is pretty much instant, assuming the car actually energizes the heating element.
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