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[Spoiler Alert + Mild Speculation] Tesla has created a monster!

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I'm pretty sure that you can't use one battery for the EPA and another for the production car. It's not like Tesla is a German car company!
The battery must be 78kWh which means that some of the other numbers are wrong. Perhaps the miles per hour of charging assume no battery loss or there's actually an 8kWh buffer.
That's right. Tesla can submit certification info for the cars they're currently selling to employees, and if the cars they sell to current-owners are different, they'll submit the certification for those cars separately before they start sales. TBH, I'm thinking that this is the production version. I don't see why they would have employees driving cars that aren't identical to the production versions, but I could be wrong.
 
TBH, I'm thinking that this is the production version. I don't see why they would have employees driving cars that aren't identical to the production versions, but I could be wrong.
It would kinda defeat the purpose of having the employee version in the first place. 78 vs 75 is only a 4% difference so it's pretty likely that Elon just rounded off when he said the max battery would be 75.
 
y do that except to try to scream "I'm different". It's not lowering the drag coefficient (if anything, it's making it worse). It's not lowering the frontal area because it doesn't extend all the way. It's almost certainly making the rear glass more expensive to manufacture. Just... odd. Like a giant stepped on the car.

Yeah, the electrek article was updated with these disclaimers from Tesla.




New Tesla Model 3 details revealed by EPA: ~80 kWh battery pack, 258 hp, and more

I can see why they would reject the numbers they submitted to the EPA, since they're trying to maintain a balance between building the best possible mass market EV while also trying to encourage sales of the S/X. At the same time, unless they're going to submit different numbers for the 3 when they start selling to current owners, my feeling is those numbers are the closest we'll get to the truth with a capital t in terms of vehicle performance.

"Update: Tesla says that those numbers were for the EPA’s tests and our calculations doesn’t represent pack capacity."

I cannot even begin to parse this.

I'm pretty sure that you can't use one battery for the EPA and another for the production car. It's not like Tesla is a German car company!
The battery must be 78kWh which means that some of the other numbers are wrong. Perhaps the miles per hour of charging assume no battery loss or there's actually an 8kWh buffer.

If you think about how they do the test, the nominal full capacity of the pack and power rating of the motor that they fill in on the info section doesn't really matter (nor does the PM vs AC induction section). What matters is how much total usable capacity they empirically got, as that affects the range rating. For the efficiency ratings even that doesn't really matter.
 
It would kinda defeat the purpose of having the employee version in the first place. 78 vs 75 is only a 4% difference so it's pretty likely that Elon just rounded off when he said the max battery would be 75.

Correct, Elon rounded down.

The 100 kWh pack has ~98 kWh available to the user, so it reasons that a M3 pack with 78 kWh available would be called an 80 kWh pack in Tesla lingo.
 
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The Prime width is ~ 95% of the Model 3;

Could you please explain how 69,3 inches / 76,1" inches is 95%?

The Cd is 0.24

2017 Chevrolet Volt Premier vs. 2017 Toyota Prius Prime Advanced – Comparison Test – Car and Driver

"How else can you explain the Prius Prime’s excellent 0.25 drag coefficient?"

Review: 2017 Toyota Prius Prime is a practical solution for the present, but no Tesla

"The coefficient of drag, already a Prius bragging point, is now down to as low as 0.25."

2017 Toyota Prius Prime – Driving Impression And Review Review @ Top Speed

"As you might expect, the shape is quite slippery, offering up a 0.25 drag coefficient to help the Prime glide through the atmosphere without wasting precious energy."

Would you please get your basic facts straight before spouting off more nonsense ?

I knew there was no way to avoid you taking any criticism of the car personally. I tried nonetheless, out of my respect for you on this forum.
 
Kind of off topic, but interesting nonetheless is the EPA data from the Rimac.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/datafiles/CSI-HRMAV0.00MDP.PDF

The power this car makes is nuts, but the range is pretty awful even though it has a larger pack than the 3 LR.

Another example of suspect data from the EPA documents, it lists the motors as AC induction but Rimac uses PM:

The D-PM-OC-600 system consists of two oil-cooled permanent magnet motor....

http://storage.rimac-automobili.com/b2b-materials/docs/motors/RA_Motors_Detailed.pdf
 
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I think the EPA certificate information lets us calculate the Monroney City and Highway MPGe in conjunction with the 126 MPGe combined fuel economy found elsewhere:

Combined is 55% city and 45% Highway
Cert UDDS is 495 miles
Cert Highway is 454.6 miles

So starting from the final MPGe of city = 1.22x of highway,
0.45x + 0.55*1.22*x = 126

Results in
113 MPGe Highway
138 MPGe City
school was quite time ago, but I think:
0.45*h + 0.55*c = 126, h=c*454.6/495
131 city
120 highway
 
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So, I did a bit of work on the different models:

View attachment 240184

A note: this is not wall to wheels, or even pack to wheels. It's propulsive energy. It's what you'd have to spend if there were zero powertrain losses and zero parasitic electricity consumption. One can make graphs that add in some assumed parasitic draw and some assumed power consumption, but this one is the pure data - how much force is trying to make the vehicle stop.

At low speeds, the M3 is unimpressive for some reason or another - but at high speeds it's amazingly sleek, bested only by the tiny Prius Prime weirdmobile (only two seats wide in the back). And high speed performance is what matters most when it comes to range. :)
Did we ever speculate WHY the M3 LR has such a flat curve from 0 to 15/20 MPH compared to every other EV on this graph?
 
Heh, the main reason the Prime does well is because (sorry, SageBrush - I know you like it!) it's a small car. It's only a 4-seater, not a 5-seater, so it's significantly narrower (57,9" vs. 76,1"), which means a lower frontal area, which means less aero drag. Its drag coefficient is almost certainly higher than M3, but that's a major reduction in frontal area. Also, its short electric range means less battery weight, while the smaller size also cuts weight.

As for the "weird" aspect... I actually like... no, love... anything that's traditionally considered "weird" but reduces drag. I love sleek, low-drag forms. Shape it like an airplane and you have my heart. The Prius Prime, however, has its weirdness (sorry SageBrush... :( ) in its styling, factors with no bearing on drag. But, of course, people can disagree about looks!

2017-toyota-prius-prime-premium-inline3-photo-671471-s-original.jpg

2017-Toyota-Prius-Prime-rear-end-02.jpg

There's no drag advantage to that "moustache" tail or those "gills" / "mandibles" on the front. No weight advantage. They just... wanted it to look like that for some reason. And some of the details are just strange. For example, the rear hatch actually contains carbon fibre**.... embossed with a carbon fibre pattern to make it look more "carbon fibery". That's like taking wood and painting wood grain onto it.

Again, though, I don't want to be too hard on it. I have nothing against 4 seaters - I drive a two seater right now! And going to 4 seats so you can narrow the vehicle does indeed reduce drag and mass - just not in as ideal of a manner as reducing Cd does (Cd is 0,25 according to Toyota).

** Cheapo loose fill or "reclaimed" CF rather than fabric. So it doesn't have the traditional CF look without embossing.

Toyota and Lexus all are getting that weird front end now. Apparently they've decided it's their signature trait.
 
EPA mileage guess:
MS75 vs M3LR
MPGe: 98 vs 126 (something like mi/kWh)
kWh usable: 72.6 vs 78
EPA mi: 249 vs X

98*72.6/249 = 126*78/X
X=344 mi !! (M3LR EPA mileage)

Suppose M3S got 51 kWh and 126 MPGe, that's 225 EPA mileage !!
A 3% MPGe improvement of M3S from M3LR will increase 225 mi to 232 mi.
 
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EPA mileage guess:
MS75 vs M3LR
MPGe: 98 vs 126 (something like mi/kWh)
kWh usable: 72.6 vs 78
EPA mi: 249 vs X

98*72.6/249 = 126*78/X
X=344 mi !! (M3LR EPA mileage)

Suppose M3S got 51 kWh and 126 MPGe, that's 225 EPA mi !!
A 3% MPGe improvement of M3S from M3LR will increase 225 mi to 232 mi.
That 126 MPGe is a combined city+highway number. You don't want to use it to extrapolate highway range.

We already know that the LR 310 Model 3 highway MPGe is 120, so go from there:
The SR 220 mile Model 3 is ~ 136 Kg lighter, so about 136*9.8*9/1000 Newtons less friction. That works out to 3.3 Wh/km less or about 2% longer range. The unresolved question is whether the Aero tyres are in the EPA result. If not and they improve range some 3% like people are saying then in total the SR Model 3 may improve highway MPGe to 120*1.05 = 126

Keep in mind though that the highway MPGe includes charging losses which are not relevant for range, so the deduced highway EPA range works out to be up to 126/0.875 = 144 MPGe. Then at 53 kWh usable capacity, 226 EPA highway miles

I could tell you what it will be for me at 6000 feet elevation, but I don't want you to be jelly.
 
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Could you please explain how 69,3 inches / 76,1" inches is 95%?
It appears that your 76.1" width for the Model 3 includes mirrors, while the Prime width you used did not.

Prius Prime length / width / height (excluding mirrors): 182.9 / 69.3 / 57.9 in [1]
Model 3 width / height (excluding mirrors): 184.8 x 72.8 x 56.8 in [2]

The Prius is 99% the length, 95% the width, and 102% the height. In terms of frontal area, the Prime has 97% the frontal area of the Model 3.

Overall the Prius has 97% the frontal area of the Model 3.

It appears that the overall drag between the two cars is very similar on paper.
 
It appears that your 76.1" width for the Model 3 includes mirrors, while the Prime width you used did not.

Prius Prime length / width / height (excluding mirrors): 182.9 / 69.3 / 57.9 in [1]
Model 3 width / height (excluding mirrors): 184.8 x 72.8 x 56.8 in [2]

The Prius is 99% the length, 95% the width, and 102% the height. In terms of frontal area, the Prime has 97% the frontal area of the Model 3.

Overall the Prius has 97% the frontal area of the Model 3.

It appears that the overall drag between the two cars is very similar on paper.
Note: frontal area can't be estimated simply by multiplying width and height. At the very least, the frontal profile should be used (but even that is not really completely accurate due to perspective warp).
 
Prius Gen IV as a whole and the retro future (fins!) look doesn't work for me. It has been more difficult to accept than the Porsche-like, "sad-faced" Model 3. To wit, I don't like the new Prius imaging at any angle (least offensive in the front as I similarly feel about Gen III, probably my favorite superficially speaking).

/OT
 
Well he actually said this.
"The shorter wheelbase only allows for a 75 kWh pack in Model 3 at current cell/module energy densities".
Elon Musk on Twitter

However, what does he mean by "75 kWh pack" still gives a lot of leeway. 75kWh usable, 75kWh nominal (conventional), 75kWh nominal (Tesla marketing, where it can have significantly more or less than this amount as subject in other threads).

He could have simply meant a pack that if they used the old scheme (instead of calling it "long range") would be advertised as "75kWh".
All I can say is Musks kWh projections better be exactly accurate for this forum. 1% high and he is "overpromising, underdelivering". 1% low and he is "lying". I can understand why Tesla is trying to get away from kWh. It's only an academically interesting number. Range is what's important.
 
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