Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

[Moderatefan]

PV system can be no greater than 120% of the total customer usage from the previous 12 months.

Hmm. Not sure if rules changed or Solar City rep misinformed me. Back when I had panels installed, I had no idea how much usage EV would add and he said it wouldn't change much.

Maybe I'll add some more panels later, will see how this works out. I was surprised by how much electricity A/C uses: in summer our consumption equalled production, in winter with production being 1/3 of summer's we only use half of it... Since it doesn't really get very hot in CO (I know hot and humid), I'm questioning A/C use. You can easily drive around all month(1 EV) on that juice.

 

[Moderatefan]

SCE doesn't mind it if you overproduce at all. They will buy all the surplus power you can make for 0.025/kWh while they still charge you for being hooked to the grid. In my case? $208 a month for nothing but the meter.

Oh wow, $208 is an obscene amount. My regular bills were around $40-50/mo. The grid connection is $7/mo for me.

 

[SageBrush]

I was surprised by how much electricity A/C uses: in summer our consumption equalled production, in winter with production being 1/3 of summer's we only use half of it... Since it doesn't really get very hot in CO (I know hot and humid), I'm questioning A/C use. You can easily drive around all month(1 EV) on that juice.

How efficient is your AC ? Is it maintained ?
The best of the latest have quite impressive COP values

 

[liuping]

Well, I’m on nem 1 and supposedly they can’t touch the deal for 20 years. My goal is zero bill for year, including charging 3 and partial charging of x. (When it’s really low I supercharge)

They can't change the fact that you get net metering, but they can change the TOU hours to make solar less beneficial. SDG&E just changed the peak rates ($0.53781 per kWh in the summer) to 4pm to 9pm. That guarantees solar users will have to use at least some of the peak power while getting their "net metering" credits at the offpeak rates for the majority of their daily production.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

Nem 1 customers don’t have to change
For 20 years from activating system
So I will remain on tiered plan , but will increase system by 10% to charge my 3.
Also plan to apply for energy credits
Should be a 400. Bill credit for my 2 Tesla’s
Hopefully yearly bill will remain near 0

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

That's why I did my own install.
But you also get a Free Bonus!!!
You learn what the government of your city and the utility think of you filthy 'do it yourselfers'. It will open your eyes.
Our utility, SCE doesn't mind it if you overproduce at all. They will buy all the surplus power you can make for 0.025/kWh while they still charge you for being hooked to the grid. In my case? $208 a month for nothing but the meter.

Say what? How is SCE charging you $208 for just the meter?

 

[McRat]

Say what? How is SCE charging you $208 for just the meter?

I got that wrong, it's:
Customer Charge - $/Meter/Month = 231.17

Don't know where I got the $208 from, probably from a bill with 27 days? SCE doesn't always go by the calendar months for some reason.

It's called Demand Based Time of Use, TOU-GS-2B for small/medium businesses. It makes it so the more power efficient you get, the more they charge per kWh, and fights against solar use.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I got that wrong, it's:
Customer Charge - $/Meter/Month = 231.17

Don't know where I got the $208 from, probably from a bill with 27 days? SCE doesn't always go by the calendar months for some reason.

It's called Demand Based Time of Use, TOU-GS-2B for small/medium businesses. It makes it so the more power efficient you get, the more they charge per kWh, and fights against solar use.

Oh, you're a medium size business. $200+/month isn't great, but if you can bring demand below 20kW, the small business plan is about a tenth of that. It's better than $500+/month, or whatever you were paying before for electricity, right?

 

[SageBrush]

They can't change the fact that you get net metering, but they can change the TOU hours to make solar less beneficial. SDG&E just changed the peak rates ($0.53781 per kWh in the summer) to 4pm to 9pm. That guarantees solar users will have to use at least some of the peak power while getting their "net metering" credits at the offpeak rates for the majority of their daily production.

It's a moving target for sure, but I doubt any overarching desire to single out home PV installations. The load curve changes as PV grows and other plants come and go.

If I was in SDG&E land I would be thinking about time shifting some of my AC use, making better use of ventilation, and adding some westward facing PV at 45 degrees if possible. The real end game is better home insulation and leak reduction.

 

[Dave EV]

Nem 1 customers don’t have to change
For 20 years from activating system
So I will remain on tiered plan , but will increase system by 10% to charge my 3.

NEM 1.0 only guarantees that for every kWh of energy you export, you get back a full kWh worth of energy back. I am pretty sure that it does not guarantee that a non-TOU rate will remain available to you. NEM 2.0 changes the rules so that when you import solar from the grid using your exported credits, you don't get full credit - about 2c / kWh is deducted from the value.

If you expand your solar system by 10% or 1 kW, you will will trigger a change that causes you to switch to NEM 2.0 rules. Adding 6 panels to your existing system will almost certainly put you into the threshold of having to go to NEM 2.0 rules, so take that into account.

NEM 2.0 rules only make it more profitable to add battery storage as any energy you consume onsite you will keep full credit (well, minus the round-trip efficiency of the batteries, which is about 10%).

BTW - if you have any decent sized solar system and still on the non-TOU DR plan, you are almost certainly better off switching to a TOU rate, even with the new 4-9 PM peak rates on SDG&E. Log into sdge.com and go run the pricing plan simulator to see what's the cheapest. The new TOU time periods drastically changed the amount of benefit for me, but it's still better overall.

 

[Glamisduner]

How do I find out if I am NEM1 or NEM2? Also how do i find out how many panels I can add before I get switched out from one to the other. Nem 2 sounds like a major scam

 

[McRat]

Oh, you're a medium size business. $200+/month isn't great, but if you can bring demand below 20kW, the small business plan is about a tenth of that. It's better than $500+/month, or whatever you were paying before for electricity, right?

We are a small business who uses more power than a normal office environment, but the same would apply to small shops who run machinery or do welding. We have a 4000 sq ft temperature controlled laboratory area. 4 heat pumps are required to run 24/7/365 to maintain the required 68°-72° F window. Note that Peak Demand is measured in 15 minute blocks and is more of the bill of than actual power (kWh). By recharging EVs I accidentally pushed us into the 20-200 kW demand window (TOU-GS-2B), and I'm trying to fix it with solar.

Before energy efficiency mods, and solar, we were $900-$2500 a month. Wide variation is due to higher Summer tariffs and the occasional heat wave up to 115°F or higher, and the short 15 minute demand window. Summer highest, Winter second, spring/fall lowest. Your worst 15 minutes of a month defines your bill. You can have 3 months in a year where you hit over 20kW for 15 min or more, and be pushed into this tariff. Note for a business, that's a total draw of 42 amps for everything, and about 120 amps for a residence depending on how much of your amps are at 240v vs 120v. We are not talking 'medium business' power levels, which are far higher.

We reduced grid energy consumption a total of 64% so far and the bills are 40% less so far. Seeing a bill that started with a 5 was quite a shock.

BUT! We were only 18-32 kW Peak Demand (average about 24 kW) which occurs from noon-3pm normally which is solar time.
When we stay under 20kW for 12 months (or I fight them about it early), we will drop into a conventional TOU plan which will reward lower electric use with lower cost per kWh and our bills will be under 50%

Why is this relevant to residential customers? Demand-based billing first started with large businesses. Then medium, then small, and there is a push toward residential demand based billing. Demand based billing will harm solar users more than any other group. A home with an EV can easily hit 20kWh, which adds about $400 to your bill even if you only did that for 15 minutes during the month. Then you also pay for power you use.

 

[bak_phy]

@McRat Might a powerwall help you avoid peaks?

 

[McRat]

To clarify why my last long-winded post is important to all EV owners especially solar-generating ones:

Demand Based metering is to be fought tooth and nail if they try to bring it to your area. It is the #1 enemy of EV charging and solar generation for residential customers.

Residential TOU Demand windows normally extend outside your solar generation window. You will be producing little power at dinner time, but you won't be generating significant power. So your solar generation will only affect a portion of your bill, which will never go negative without a lot of TOU shifting batteries added and whole lot of panels. Your 'payback' duration will double.

EVs draw a lot of kW while charging, but don't actually use a lot of kWh in a month. Charging your EV for 1 hour a day vs. 8 hours will cost very close to the same amount which will exceed the cost of gas. If somebody wants a more data on this, I can give you some. But I don't want to hijack the thread more than necessary.

 

[voip-ninja]

Tiered billing seems to have started on the west coast and is moving east. My local provider moved to tiered summertime 5+ years ago and my recollection is they pointed to it being something done in CA and being effective for controlling demand. Soon they were talking about tiered year round and lower levels to hit the next tier up.

They also had the nerve to insist that 500kwh was more than anyone should be using in a month anyway, even during the summer. The fact that average home size outside of the metro area has gone up 200% over the past 40 years appears to be lost on them.

If people cave in on this then tiered internet is next. People who have a few teenagers in the house who live on Netflix and Youtube will be shocked when those $200 internet bills start rolling in.

 

[McRat]

@McRat Might a powerwall help you avoid peaks?

Yes, time shifting will reduce peaks, but storage systems increase your payback years considerably. And you will have to have a system smart enough to 'talk' to your Demand meter and adjust in real time. A 15 minute window each month determines most of your bill with solar. This peak window can occur at different times each day of the month. Miss that peak 15 min window just one day, and the batteries will have very little effect on that month's bill. You are playing Wack a Mole with your utility company and your electrical equipment.

 

[bak_phy]

This peak window can occur at different times each day of the month.

Isn't the purpose of peak pricing to make some people not consume so much during that time? How can they do that if the peak time keeps moving? Do some systems, e.g. ACs, get a signal to shutdown ?

 

[Saghost]

Yes, time shifting will reduce peaks, but storage systems increase your payback years considerably. And you will have to have a system smart enough to 'talk' to your Demand meter and adjust in real time. A 15 minute window each month determines most of your bill with solar. This peak window can occur at different times each day of the month. Miss that peak 15 min window just one day, and the batteries will have very little effect on your bill.

I think he and I were more thinking load shaving than time shifting - what I read up thread was that keeping the peaks below 20 kW would save hundreds of dollars every month on the demand charge. It won't take long to justify a Powerwall or two on that basis alone - time shifting power on TOU and avoiding interruptions are just bonuses.

 

[McRat]

Isn't the purpose of peak pricing to make some people not consume so much during that time? How can they do that if the peak time keeps moving? Do some systems, e.g. ACs, get a signal to shutdown ?

They do have power controls to fight against Demand TOU. I have not priced them yet, since I really don't get a choice NOT to run my AC when the temp hits our tight temperature window. The power controls stop high demand devices from running concurrently.

 

[RandyS]

How do I find out if I am NEM1 or NEM2? Also how do i find out how many panels I can add before I get switched out from one to the other. Nem 2 sounds like a major scam

Any system installed after June 29, 2016 is on NEM 2.0.

If you are part of the NEM 1.0 group (on Schedule NEM), and your system is less than 10kW, you can only increase it by no more than 1kW.
Net Energy Metering Program | San Diego Gas & Electric