Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

[insaneoctane]

I'm amazed at how widely electricity prices vary in the US. My TOU rate for super off peak (10pm to 6am) is less than $0.03/kWh in North Carolina. Off peak is about 0.09/kWh but even the peak rate only hits the mid twenties in the winter and mid thirties in the summer (the peak rate runs for just 20 hours a week in winter or 25 hours a week in summer)

Anyone want to take a shot at explaining why North Carolina vs OP electricity costs are ~10x? I get that CA is "more expensive", but WTF?

 

[cwerdna]

Anyone want to take a shot at explaining why North Carolina vs OP electricity costs are ~10x? I get that CA is "more expensive", but WTF?

There are even some cases where night time electricity is free (e.g. some parts of Texas).

A Texas Utility Offers a Nighttime Special: Free Electricity
Free Nights & Solar Days: 100% Free at Night. 100% Solar All Day
TXU is First to Offer Free Night-Time Electricity Rate Plan | CleanTechnica
Here’s Who Will Pay You to Use Less Power in Texas - search for TXU

 

[McRat]

Anyone want to take a shot at explaining why North Carolina vs OP electricity costs are ~10x? I get that CA is "more expensive", but WTF?

California is poorly run. We have very few government officials who care about working class Californians. There is not a working system of checks and balances, and there is no oversight. Our state Public Utilities Commission is a rubber stamp for whatever the utilities desire, who have a legal monopoly in most areas of the state.

Attempts to move our utilities into a free market system have been fought by the state government.

 

[Zythryn]

California is poorly run. We have very few government officials who care about working class Californians. There is not a working system of checks and balances, and there is no oversight. Our state Public Utilities Commission is a rubber stamp for whatever the utilities desire, who have a legal monopoly in most areas of the state.

Attempts to move our utilities into a free market system have been fought by the state government.

I thought a big part of the CA issue was deregulation, not regulation?

Edit—-

Aha, so both poor regulations and deregulation are issues.
Californians are paying billions for power they don't need

A snippet from the article:

The over-abundance of electricity can be traced to poorly designed deregulation of the industry, which set the stage for blackouts during the energy crisis of 2000-2001.

Lawmakers opened the state’s power business to competition in 1998, so individual utilities would no longer enjoy a monopoly on producing and selling electricity. The goal was to keep prices lower while ensuring adequate supply. Utilities and their customers were allowed to buy electricity from new, unregulated operators called independent power producers.

It is quite an interesting, and enlightening read.

 

[SageBrush]

I thought a big part of the CA issue was deregulation, not regulation?

CA prices are multi-factorial, but if I had to pick #1, I choose paying back all the money lost during the Enron years.

 

[McRat]

I thought a big part of the CA issue was deregulation, not regulation?

There is little in California that is not heavily regulated. There is a huge disparity between what the State says, and what they do.

Using the same rates, summer billing before solar and efficiency improvements: 0.18/kWh in July 2017. After efficiency boost and solar production? 0.24/kWh in the winter. This is a state regulated rate structure for SCE. If I boost energy consumption, my rate goes back down.

In the case of the OP, Sempra Energy (his actual provider) has settled lawsuits for $0.8 billion for natural gas market manipulation, and price gouging (profiteering by a monopoly) in the last decade.

 

[SageBrush]

and

The unequal playing field between the independents and the utilities sounds like a big problem.
And the guaranteed ROI HAS to go.

 

[voip-ninja]

Yes, exactly that. True, my Model S is cheaper per Kilometer then a comparable gas car, but I simply don't want to burn gas. Period.

You "don't want to" but you still do, even with your S.

Currently, the main resources for electricity in the Netherlands are fossil fuels, such as natural gas and coal. In 2012, fossil fuels accounted for 81% of the produced electricity.[1]

Electricity sector in the Netherlands - Wikipedia

 

[widodh]

You "don't want to" but you still do, even with your S.



Electricity sector in the Netherlands - Wikipedia

Yes, I'm aware. However, my house has PV and our office as well. They produce enough to run my S on next to our regular demand.

 

[McRat]

I thought a big part of the CA issue was deregulation, not regulation?

Edit—-

Aha, so both poor regulations and deregulation are issues.
Californians are paying billions for power they don't need

A snippet from the article:


It is quite an interesting, and enlightening read.

On the edit: I've been in California my entire life, and ever since I first started paying to utilities, I've only dealt with monopolies at the consumer level.

I'm reading they opened the market but it never came to pass at the consumer level for me and I imagine many others. My power choices are 2. Make my own, or buy it from SCE.

PS- be cautious with the LA Times. They spin their articles quite a bit.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

Sdge applied for another 11% rate increase
Recently. Makes my solar system even more valuable. Plan to add 6 more panels to cover 3 mileage. If the government caved in to their request to scrap net 0, will buy batteries and cut the cord.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I'm gonna say 'NO' but only on the off chance that your reservation is ahead of mine

 

[KidDoc]

Part of the reason I'm going with solar is my local city (College Station TX) does not allow competition for electricity. So I'm paying 0.13 kWh which is great in California but my neighbors 60 miles away can shop plans and generally pay 0.6-0.8 kWh. From my large solar investment, after discounts and tax breaks, I end up paying $47,000 for the next 25 years of electricity (0.06 kW/h) vs paying $89,000 to the city assuming their rates will not increase (haha!). Since I plan to stay here for retirement (45 now), it is a good investment for me IMO.

 

[david_42]

I'm up in the Portland, OR area and switching to the TOU would raise my total costs (I've downloaded hourly data). The mid-day rate is higher than the flat rate and the peak rate is about double. Since about half of our power is hydro, the base rate is reasonable and I've figured that our cost per mile will be about 40% of our Kia's rate. Since Oregon has neither oil or a working refinery, our gas prices tend to be right up there.

Our insurance will be much higher with a new Model 3 vs an 11-yo Kia, but the Kia is reaching the "always something that needs fixing" stage. last month it was the front passenger's door, this month, the driver's door remote doesn't work most of the time. Works for the rest of the doors, but the closest dealership couldn't replicate the problem.

 

[Glamisduner]

Amory Lovins called conservation "nega watts."
Even in this era of cheap PV it is often the first thing to do, particularly if more PV is not an option to supply the EV.

People would be surprised just how much electricity can be saved by a smart mixture of efficiency and avoiding waste. My two person household that uses NG for DHW and cooking is able to cover over 15k miles driving and all our electric with a 3.78 kW array -- and have some left over.

Not like I don't try, we heat our home 50% of the time with a wood stove, and 50% off propane (saves on the cost of having the trucks pump us propane). But water heater, kitchen stove, oven, etc is all electric. We replaced all our incandescent etc a while ago.

I do home-brew, so I also have some extra chest freezer costs, but they run at higher temperatures and are fairly efficient. I'm pretty sure if we had natural gas we could drastically drop our electric bill and the 6 or 7 kw system (whatever it is considered) would produce plenty of power.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I didn't have much say in this - xcel allows to install array that produces your average consumption over the last year plus maximum up to 10% if you like. They dont want to pay you money if you over-produce.

According to Xcel's Residential Solar FAQ, "the annual power output (kWh) of a PV system can be no greater than 120% of the total customer usage from the previous 12 months." Also, if you have a newly purchased EV, "up to 250 kWh per month can be added to your average historical load."

We added 3 EVs within a year (well, 367 days) but only one of those was charged regularly at home over the past year. Going forward, we'll have all three regularly charging at home. We're waiting to see what size solar system they will allow and hoping the 120% and 250 kWh aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[jeffro01]

Sdge applied for another 11% rate increase
Recently. Makes my solar system even more valuable. Plan to add 6 more panels to cover 3 mileage. If the government caved in to their request to scrap net 0, will buy batteries and cut the cord.

While I find this discussion fascinating overall and don't have much to contribute other than to say I'm on PG&E EVA TOU with a oversized PV array on NEM1 (intentionally done so), I did want to point out something in your post...

You likely won't be legally able to disconnect from the grid... Believe it or not, in the vast majority of municipalities, there are laws against people being electrically self sufficient when inside of existing franchised boundaries... Meaning that if you live in the city limits you MUST maintain at least a minimum connection to the grid whether you want to or not...

Jeff

 

[Skryll]

California is poorly run. We have very few government officials who care about working class Californians. There is not a working system of checks and balances, and there is no oversight. Our state Public Utilities Commission is a rubber stamp for whatever the utilities desire, who have a legal monopoly in most areas of the state.

Attempts to move our utilities into a free market system have been fought by the state government.

PG&E has been publicly traded for a long time. Still I am surprised that the lowest time of use price I can get is $0.12/kWh compared to some other states. But doesnt really matter too much. Solar pays for itself, and worst case you add some powerwalls to it to shift production vs demand around.

The real problem exists for people that rent from people that don't get the big picture. Renters market with more electric car owner demand should balance that out tho...

 

[Sandiegodoug]

Well, I’m on nem 1 and supposedly they can’t touch the deal for 20 years. My goal is zero bill for year, including charging 3 and partial charging of x. (When it’s really low I supercharge)

 

[SageBrush]

Not like I don't try, we heat our home 50% of the time with a wood stove, and 50% off propane (saves on the cost of having the trucks pump us propane). But water heater, kitchen stove, oven, etc is all electric. We replaced all our incandescent etc a while ago.

I do home-brew, so I also have some extra chest freezer costs, but they run at higher temperatures and are fairly efficient. I'm pretty sure if we had natural gas we could drastically drop our electric bill and the 6 or 7 kw system (whatever it is considered) would produce plenty of power.

The next step would be a DIY home inventory of energy uses. You may find high phantom losses, or devices that are hogs. For all your 120v devices a simple $25 monitor like a Kill-a-watt works great. It also helps to get in the habit of turning OFF (really off) any device not being used. They add up quickly because most of us have dozens if not hundreds.

When it comes time to replace a device, you can find a wide spread of efficiency. E.g. refrigerators can range from 1 - 3 kWh day for 20 - 22 cubic feet volume sizes. A desktop computer with screen can run all day at 100 watts, or be an efficient choice that runs at 20 watts and sleeps at 1 watt. Lights can be left on through the night, or be swapped out for 0.5 watt night lights. The list is looong.

Good luck!