Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

[Glamisduner]

I love that you you guys put in your own solar. Maybe if I was retired and needed a project i would have the kind of time to research all the information to do that. There's all kinds of reasons why DIY was not an option for me. For one I work 9 hours a day and commute 2+ hours. If I take lunch, add another hour to the day. So by the time I get home it's dark out and cold and I'm not about to jump up on the roof. On the weekends I try to catch up (but usually fall behind) doing all the things most people take care of during the week.

Also there's all kinds of codes and skills you have to know about when doing an install, how far from the edge of the roof the panels need to be, where I can place the panels to generate the most power, how the trees will shade the house during different times of year, how to no create leaks in the roof, where to put the inverts, getting people to belly crawl through my attic that is only like 2 feet high in the center to snake wires from one side of the house to the other. Having to take off work many days for things like SDGE coming out to disconnect power to your house from the power line so you can remove your old power panel so you can replace it with a new one, and you have to get that done quickly so that you won't be without power for days or months (no master shutoff on my 1960's panel). meaning more research on how to remove a stucco wall embedded panel and replace it with another one). Patch stucco, paint etc. It's not like you just go up on the roof and start nailing panel tracks to it then connect some wires (well maybe for some installs!). Heck it took almost 8 months to for the company to complete our house (Yes they were really slow and cancelled many days).

It would have been such a huge project that I would never have finished.

Also I believe solar is a bit cheaper than it was 5 or 6 years ago when we got ours, but I could be mistaken. Anyways it can be a big project, it's not like hey power is expensive I'm going to buy more panels. I haven't even figure out how I will be installing a new 50 amp power for the tesla yet. I certainly won't be belly crawling through fiberglass insulation in the attic to do it myself. One time was enough!

The calculations above are pretty cool thanks for those. However our install isn't large enough to power our whole house (house isn't big enough to add that many panels). Our install's purpose was to keep us in tier 1 power (TOU wasn't even a thing back then). In the end I ended up paying nearly the same amount for loan + power, but I got a nice rebate on the install and had our breaker box upgraded. This allowed us to upgrade windows, install a whole house fan and a couple years later add AC. But it's still an old house!

As far as moving closer to work I'd love to, but living like 5 miles from work is impossible for me at this time, as those homes are all over a million. Unless I moved into an apartment....

 

[GSP]

@Glamisduner

If installing a 50 A circuit for your Tesla is difficult or expensive for your home, try using a 30 A circuit and Tesla's 14-30 adapter. 30 A is fast enough for just about anyone.

I have been using a 20 A 240 V circuit to charge my Model S for over a year. Occasionally I would like a little faster, but it always has been fast enough.

GSP

 

[llngoc]

I am here in the SF East Bay Area which has very hot summer and cold winter. I am on PG&E EV-A TOU rate with a 5.5kWH solar and I am paying a total of $2000/year on electricity. Which includes all-day AC running in the summer and night time charging for the Tesla. The key is not to charge during peak hour and reduce electricity consumption at day time so I can sell the excess solar power back to PG&E at 0.44/kwH and charge at $0.12/kwh at off-peak.

Actually even $0.23 is not too bad and you should still come out ahead of gas if you do not charge at peak.

 

[David99]

I realize within 5-10 years many more electric cars will appear and that should drive down gas prices and drive up electric rates. Does that worry me and my pocketbook? Not a bit. Cleaner air will be worth it.

I agree oil prices will drop to be able to compete with EVs, but I don't see electricity prices going up. Solar is already 5 cts per kWh today and it will not go up, only down in the next 5-10 years. Battery storage is still a new thing today but will be more common in 10 years. In fact, EVs will probably become your personal storage battery. The power companies won't be able to sell electric as expensive as they so now. Especially peak rates.

 

[Dave EV]

Our install's purpose was to keep us in tier 1 power (TOU wasn't even a thing back then).

If you've had solar for 5-6 years, I guarantee you that TOU is a thing. SDGE TOU rates have been around for much longer than that.

Anyway, if you're generating enough solar to keep you in Tier 1, you are probably generating enough to switch to the DR-SES rate without an EV and pay about the same annually to SDGE. Log into the SDGE website and find the rate comparison tool. It will run the last 12 months of usage and find you the cheapest rate schedule.

Even if it's slightly more right now to go to DR-SES, with an EV that is charged off peak you'll lock in the cheapest rates charging slightly more than 20c/kWh, not the 38c/kWh you used for your original estimate.

With San Diego gas prices 20c/kWh is about the same as a car that gets 50 mpg in terms of fuel cost per mile. But an EV is so much more satisfying to drive than a hybrid, and cleaner, too.

 

[Skryll]

Disagree completely.

Some of the TOU plans screw you very badly in all the other hours. There's no way at my house (even when I'm not home) to make my power consumption 0 during those other hours. And, there are times that I am home and am awake where those rates are not cheap.

The combination of solar (daytime production at peak and near-peak) combined with charging the car at night is perfect with net-metering and time of use plan. Up here in northern california that is the windfall between $0.25 and $0.45 for production which is always more than you would use for your cooking and air conditining if your solar system is sized right, and the $0.12 at night for the vast majority of consumption in form of your electric cars charging.

 

[Skryll]

...

With San Diego gas prices 20c/kWh is about the same as a car that gets 50 mpg in terms of fuel cost per mile. But an EV is so much more satisfying to drive than a hybrid, and cleaner, too.

A sports car that when you drive it agressive gets you 50mpg, doesnt waste your time with going to gas stations and babysitting the refuel process, just plug in and go do something more interesting. Never again oil change or smog check appointments either. Autopilot to make stop and go commute traffic an opportunity for relaxation like here: Beautiful morning commute with autopilot in tesla Model 3 • r/teslamotors

 

[SageBrush]

With San Diego gas prices 20c/kWh is about the same as a car that gets 50 mpg in terms of fuel cost per mile. But an EV is so much more satisfying to drive than a hybrid, and cleaner, too.

Gasbuddy.com reports $3.3 average price for regular gasoline in San Diego. That is about 6.5 cents a mile for a 50 mpg EPA car.
A Model 3 at 3.86 EPA miles per kWh breaks even at 6.5*3.86 = 25 cents a kWh

 

[Skryll]

Bottom line-
if you care about being green then yes
if you care only about your $$$ then no.

A lot more reasons why yes than just being green, already stated in this thread. To summarize how I feel about it once I switched to electric driving: I could never go back, just imagine AT&T offers you to trade in your iphone for a cheaper landline. Would you do it? Didn't think so.

 

[kmartin]

I'm amazed at how widely electricity prices vary in the US. My TOU rate for super off peak (10pm to 6am) is less than $0.03/kWh in North Carolina. Off peak is about 0.09/kWh but even the peak rate only hits the mid twenties in the winter and mid thirties in the summer (the peak rate runs for just 20 hours a week in winter or 25 hours a week in summer)

 

[mlondre]

Best way is to install it yourself and then have an electrician make all the connections.

As an electrician, please don’t do that. Most people who think they can do electrical work themselves have no idea what they are doing, install the wrong parts and material, and turn a simple job into a headache. Heck, I’ve seen many EVSE installations that “professional” electricians have done that are butchered horribly.
It’d be like writing your own will and trust and wanting a lawyer to review if it was done correctly. There is no way the lawyer would put their professional accreditation on the line, as it’d be simpler to just redo it their way from the start.

 

[McRat]

As an electrician, please don’t do that. Most people who think they can do electrical work themselves have no idea what they are doing, install the wrong parts and material, and turn a simple job into a headache. Heck, I’ve seen many EVSE installations that “professional” electricians have done that are butchered horribly.
It’d be like writing your own will and trust and wanting a lawyer to review if it was done correctly. There is no way the lawyer would put their professional accreditation on the line, as it’d be simpler to just redo it their way from the start.

Understand that >90% of the man-hours for a solar system do not involving wiring. Mine weighs more than 8,000 lbs and has several hundred components. And you need the complete set of both Single Line Drawings, and standard blueprints submitted to the AHJ and utility, and they must have PE stamps on them. There are no decisions left to the electrician. The electrician must follow the instructions to the letter. In my case, the electrician actually had something wrong. He corrected it on the spot during final inspection. Grounds must be crimped or fused together, it was there on the drawings.

 

[llngoc]

Have you heard that PG&E may be switching the peak/offpeak around? A co-worked mentioned to me that this new rate is being proposed due to solar deployment in NorthCal.

The combination of solar (daytime production at peak and near-peak) combined with charging the car at night is perfect with net-metering and time of use plan. Up here in northern california that is the windfall between $0.25 and $0.45 for production which is always more than you would use for your cooking and air conditining if your solar system is sized right, and the $0.12 at night for the vast majority of consumption in form of your electric cars charging.

 

[Glamisduner]

Gasbuddy.com reports $3.3 average price for regular gasoline in San Diego. That is about 6.5 cents a mile for a 50 mpg EPA car.
A Model 3 at 3.86 EPA miles per kWh breaks even at 6.5*3.86 = 25 cents a kWh

Sounds like electric vs gas will be a wash then. Guess I might as well stick with the model 3 for now.

I agree oil prices will drop to be able to compete with EVs, but I don't see electricity prices going up. Solar is already 5 cts per kWh today and it will not go up, only down in the next 5-10 years. Battery storage is still a new thing today but will be more common in 10 years. In fact, EVs will probably become your personal storage battery. The power companies won't be able to sell electric as expensive as they so now. Especially peak rates.

Both electric and gas prices are ALWAYS going up.

 

[cwerdna]

The combination of solar (daytime production at peak and near-peak) combined with charging the car at night is perfect with net-metering and time of use plan. Up here in northern california that is the windfall between $0.25 and $0.45 for production which is always more than you would use for your cooking and air conditining if your solar system is sized right, and the $0.12 at night for the vast majority of consumption in form of your electric cars charging.

That's all useless for me considering I have no solar (I don't own the house I live in and will probably need to move within a year anyway) nor do I have any central AC. I have a small "portable" rolling unit that I sometimes use in the summer only on very hot days.

 

[liuping]

if I switch to SDG&E TOU plan for electric vehicles owners in the summer the average cost of electricity will be $.38 per kWh. Comes out to
$2,273.91 for the model S with my commute and $2,117.65 for my current ford focus that gets 34 mpg with gas at $3.20 a gallon.

Another thing to consider even if your average rate is really $.38 (which is not likely on the EV-TOU2 plan if you have solar and charge during super off peek, and consider even the peak rate for almost 1/2 the year is less than $.25 per kWh), is that SDG&E also has a EV climate credit to help lower your annual bill. Last year it was $200 per EV, per SDG&E account. We got $400 for since we had a Volt and a Model S, which was more than our total bill for the year

They have an email list you can sign up for to be notified when the application is available this year (and you can apply again this year even if you got the rebate last year): Electric Vehicle Climate Credit | San Diego Gas & Electric

 

[cybergates]

Luckily my rates are not as bad as OP in riverside, but double pane windows retrofitted (Lowe's), Nest thermostat, changing to LED bulbs 100% of the house and getting my roof redone with aluminum-backed sheathing has cut the electric bill to a 1/3 of what it used to be in this 70's house. Then I have solar too. I should get more solar panels but i pay for about $100/month even in peak summer for electricity including charging the car about ~8 times a month and heavy AC use (so cal)

 

[SageBrush]

Luckily my rates are not as bad as OP in riverside, but double pane windows retrofitted (Lowe's), Nest thermostat, changing to LED bulbs 100% of the house and getting my roof redone with aluminum-backed sheathing has cut the electric bill to a 1/3 of what it used to be in this 70's house. Then I have solar too. I should get more solar panels but i pay for about $100/month even in peak summer for electricity including charging the car about ~8 times a month and heavy AC use (so cal)

Amory Lovins called conservation "nega watts."
Even in this era of cheap PV it is often the first thing to do, particularly if more PV is not an option to supply the EV.

People would be surprised just how much electricity can be saved by a smart mixture of efficiency and avoiding waste. My two person household that uses NG for DHW and cooking is able to cover over 15k miles driving and all our electric with a 3.78 kW array -- and have some left over.

 

[mlondre]

Understand that >90% of the man-hours for a solar system do not involving wiring. Mine weighs more than 8,000 lbs and has several hundred components. And you need the complete set of both Single Line Drawings, and standard blueprints submitted to the AHJ and utility, and they must have PE stamps on them. There are no decisions left to the electrician. The electrician must follow the instructions to the letter. In my case, the electrician actually had something wrong. He corrected it on the spot during final inspection. Grounds must be crimped or fused together, it was there on the drawings.

I agree with 100% of what you said! But the only electrician I’d trust to wire up a solar system is one who has done it a bunch, which means he probably either owns or works for a solar installer that would rather own 100% of the project to control the liability of a possibly-poorly designed solar system.

I’m not trying to disparage your self-designed solar system, I’m sure it’s perfect! But most amateur-designed electrical projects aren’t

 

[alloverx]

35 years is a long time to live in one house (in terms of solar panel lifetime). Possibly solar will be an asset to a house sale. I recall the average time in a house is 7 years but I have no idea where that stat came from. Naturally Solar panels like EVs are getting better all the time just depends on when you jump in, if you can.