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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
411
858
Elsewhere
@wk057 Tesla seems to be trying to save a 12V battery from dying / replacement at the cost of significant wear on other components (contactors, coolant pumps) in the cars without standby power supplies, if I understand correctly.

If true, I'd rather have the 12V battery be the wear item and replace it myself. Is the only way for us to avoid this issue to constantly monitor the 12V battery ourselves and replace it proactively? Is it possible to install a standby power supply in the older cars?
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,502
4,425
Future
@wk057 Tesla seems to be trying to save a 12V battery from dying / replacement at the cost of significant wear on other components (contactors, coolant pumps) in the cars without standby power supplies, if I understand correctly.

If true, I'd rather have the 12V battery be the wear item and replace it myself. Is the only way for us to avoid this issue to constantly monitor the 12V battery ourselves and replace it proactively? Is it possible to install a standby power supply in the older cars?

12v battery replacement is not a warranty item. I don't see why they would care NOT to sell more batteries!
 
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wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,692
11,812
Hickory, NC, USA
@wk057 Tesla seems to be trying to save a 12V battery from dying / replacement at the cost of significant wear on other components (contactors, coolant pumps) in the cars without standby power supplies, if I understand correctly.

If true, I'd rather have the 12V battery be the wear item and replace it myself. Is the only way for us to avoid this issue to constantly monitor the 12V battery ourselves and replace it proactively? Is it possible to install a standby power supply in the older cars?

The other items dont really wear in this case. The cost is really only additional vampire drain.

A standby supply can't be retrofitted as this would mean replacing the main LV harness, upgrading the HV battery to a 2.0 pack, replacing the MCU and BCM, and more. Easily to sell and buy something newer.

12v battery replacement is not a warranty item. I don't see why they would care NOT to sell more batteries!

I don't pretend to understand Tesla's motives for most changes and I can really only point out what the changes do and speculate as to their thought process.

The particular changes in question here are indisputably related to keeping the 12V usable for longer, as there would be no other reason to make these changes.

I'd guess needing your 12V battery replaced multiple times per year is bad optics, especially on older cars where the 12V is virtually inaccessible and not something many people can do without difficulty. Arguably having people see you need to take your car to be serviced regularly for an item that should last several years is probably worse optics than people on an internet forum complaining about mysterious range loss or pumps running or whatever.


All of that said, most cases I've found where pumps run at full or otherwise above what'd be considered normal vs just low circulating to keep the DCDC cool, end up being the result of a bad pump, fan, compressor, or some other item on the thermal control system not reporting in as it should be. This forces the system to run everything it can since it only has resulting readings as a measure of how effective things are performing.

Granted, it doesn't matter much what I post here (which is partly why I rarely bother anymore), since the usual suspects will cry foul no matter what the facts are. Disappointing.
 
Oct 10, 2019
385
188
So-Cal
Liars... sorry, but prevarication does not quite describe what you were told.

There should be no reduction in charging speeds below total accumulated10000 KwH of DC chargung

You can prove this on a 2014 ish and later car, by getting a reader, adapter cable and SMT or equal App.

Said App will show all DC charging since new.

I have less than 3000 KwH of DC, yet I am charge gated on the same 2019 update that borked all of us.
I have 20,000kWH of DC and 21,000kWH of AC charging on my 2014 P85D 116k miles my max SC speed is 128kW but it tapers off pretty quick, by the time i hit 50% I'm at 49kW, before the update that nerfed my curve at 50% i was at 72kW.

Here are my stats at 185,535 miles.
46 MWh on Supercharger
16.4 MWh AC charging
22.8 MWh regen

70. 0 kWh remaining from 81.7 initially.
Damn bro i though i had a lot of SC usage with my 20MWh
my useable remaining at 100% is 69kWh, the cells have a high of 4.198 and a low of 4.184 when charged to 100%. i am scheduling an appt because pack 4, 6, and 9 are always low and refuses to balance with the rest of the pack.
 

Guy V

Member
Apr 22, 2015
367
1,045
St. Louis, MO
The other items dont really wear in this case. The cost is really only additional vampire drain.

A standby supply can't be retrofitted as this would mean replacing the main LV harness, upgrading the HV battery to a 2.0 pack, replacing the MCU and BCM, and more. Easily to sell and buy something newer.



I don't pretend to understand Tesla's motives for most changes and I can really only point out what the changes do and speculate as to their thought process.

The particular changes in question here are indisputably related to keeping the 12V usable for longer, as there would be no other reason to make these changes.

I'd guess needing your 12V battery replaced multiple times per year is bad optics, especially on older cars where the 12V is virtually inaccessible and not something many people can do without difficulty. Arguably having people see you need to take your car to be serviced regularly for an item that should last several years is probably worse optics than people on an internet forum complaining about mysterious range loss or pumps running or whatever.


All of that said, most cases I've found where pumps run at full or otherwise above what'd be considered normal vs just low circulating to keep the DCDC cool, end up being the result of a bad pump, fan, compressor, or some other item on the thermal control system not reporting in as it should be. This forces the system to run everything it can since it only has resulting readings as a measure of how effective things are performing.

Granted, it doesn't matter much what I post here (which is partly why I rarely bother anymore), since the usual suspects will cry foul no matter what the facts are. Disappointing.
Can the 12V battery be trickle charged through the 12V outlet? If so would a lithium charger pack work? And of course, would this actually help with the problem?
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,502
4,425
Future
Can the 12V battery be trickle charged through the 12V outlet? If so would a lithium charger pack work? And of course, would this actually help with the problem?

Love to see someone with this issue actually try it and report here to state the problem solved ;)
 

raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
411
858
Elsewhere
The other items dont really wear in this case. The cost is really only additional vampire drain.

A standby supply can't be retrofitted as this would mean replacing the main LV harness, upgrading the HV battery to a 2.0 pack, replacing the MCU and BCM, and more. Easily to sell and buy something newer.



I don't pretend to understand Tesla's motives for most changes and I can really only point out what the changes do and speculate as to their thought process.

The particular changes in question here are indisputably related to keeping the 12V usable for longer, as there would be no other reason to make these changes.

I'd guess needing your 12V battery replaced multiple times per year is bad optics, especially on older cars where the 12V is virtually inaccessible and not something many people can do without difficulty. Arguably having people see you need to take your car to be serviced regularly for an item that should last several years is probably worse optics than people on an internet forum complaining about mysterious range loss or pumps running or whatever.


All of that said, most cases I've found where pumps run at full or otherwise above what'd be considered normal vs just low circulating to keep the DCDC cool, end up being the result of a bad pump, fan, compressor, or some other item on the thermal control system not reporting in as it should be. This forces the system to run everything it can since it only has resulting readings as a measure of how effective things are performing.

Granted, it doesn't matter much what I post here (which is partly why I rarely bother anymore), since the usual suspects will cry foul no matter what the facts are. Disappointing.
I see, so not much wear on the other items after all. Thanks for explaining. The only downside being more vampire drain, I guess no need to do anything on my part then.
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,502
4,425
Future
I see, so not much wear on the other items after all. Thanks for explaining. The only downside being more vampire drain, I guess no need to do anything on my part then.

Correct. The pumps and fans used in Tesla cars do not suffer from wear and tear. They are only mechanical. /S
 
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wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,692
11,812
Hickory, NC, USA
Can the 12V battery be trickle charged through the 12V outlet? If so would a lithium charger pack work? And of course, would this actually help with the problem?

No, because the total energy in/out of the 12V is accounted for. If you use a trickle charger it'll just top off the 12V outside of the DCDC's control, but it will still know its weak and the current algo for 12V types other than the latest will stay engaged. Long story short, the capacity monitoring algo is external-charger-aware, but it doesn't alter its behavior based on them for the most part aside from ramping down output to not overcharge the 12V.

It can sometimes hasten the timeout on the 12V support, but not always.

Edit: I missed that the question was if it can be charged through the OUTLET. That's a flat "no", since that is switched off when the car is off.

If you bypass the 12V current shunt, you'll make things worse because power in will greatly differ from power out and the gateway will throw its hands up and just tell you to replace the 12V battery. (This is equally problematic in the alternative case of discharging to a 12V accessory directly from the 12V, bypassing the shunt.)

Correct. The pumps and fans used in Tesla cars do not suffer from wear and tear. They are only mechanical. /S
Obviously I meant that the items in question don't wear like an over cycled 12V battery. Regardless, the contactors, pumps, and fans should outlive the car either way.

Contactors only really wear if opened or closed under load, which never happens in this system outside of a collision of fault. Aside from that they're rated for tens of thousands of cycles... far outside the life of a vehicle.

For pumps, I actually have a pump from a 2013 S in my shop in part of a project that's been running nearly 24/7 @ full speed for several years without any issues. I also used one in my most recent PC water cooling project. The pumps are awesome. When they fail its usually the bulk input capacitor on the speed control board that goes, which is a random and/or time-based failure item that can even fail when not in use at all. They can fail for other reasons, like cavitation causing a hammer effect on the impeller and damaging it... but this isn't an issue in a car that's maintained. Also, the car slows pumps when it detects low coolant for this reason.

The fans, from mid 2013 onward, only seem to develop issues related to road salt filled moisture in my experience so far, outside of physical damage issues obviously. Earlier ones had crap bearings that could whine or cause issues.... and you can hear those squeal when they spin down.

Suffice it to say, no one is going to the service center every 6 months to have a pump or fan replaced, but people were doing this for 12Vs even more often prior to the changes and overall design updates (refresh + X) that address the issue.
 
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Guy V

Member
Apr 22, 2015
367
1,045
St. Louis, MO
No, because the total energy in/out of the 12V is accounted for. If you use a trickle charger it'll just top off the 12V outside of the DCDC's control, but it will still know its weak and the current algo for 12V types other than the latest will stay engaged. Long story short, the capacity monitoring algo is external-charger-aware, but it doesn't alter its behavior based on them for the most part aside from ramping down output to not overcharge the 12V.

It can sometimes hasten the timeout on the 12V support, but not always.

Edit: I missed that the question was if it can be charged through the OUTLET. That's a flat "no", since that is switched off when the car is off.

If you bypass the 12V current shunt, you'll make things worse because power in will greatly differ from power out and the gateway will throw its hands up and just tell you to replace the 12V battery. (This is equally problematic in the alternative case of discharging to a 12V accessory directly from the 12V, bypassing the shunt.)


Obviously I meant that the items in question don't wear like an over cycled 12V battery. Regardless, the contactors, pumps, and fans should outlive the car either way.

Contactors only really wear if opened or closed under load, which never happens in this system outside of a collision of fault. Aside from that they're rated for tens of thousands of cycles... far outside the life of a vehicle.

For pumps, I actually have a pump from a 2013 S in my shop in part of a project that's been running nearly 24/7 @ full speed for several years without any issues. I also used one in my most recent PC water cooling project. The pumps are awesome. When they fail its usually the bulk input capacitor on the speed control board that goes, which is a random and/or time-based failure item that can even fail when not in use at all. They can fail for other reasons, like cavitation causing a hammer effect on the impeller and damaging it... but this isn't an issue in a car that's maintained. Also, the car slows pumps when it detects low coolant for this reason.

The fans, from mid 2013 onward, only seem to develop issues related to road salt filled moisture in my experience so far, outside of physical damage issues obviously. Earlier ones had crap bearings that could whine or cause issues.... and you can hear those squeal when they spin down.

Suffice it to say, no one is going to the service center every 6 months to have a pump or fan replaced, but people were doing this for 12Vs even more often prior to the changes and overall design updates (refresh + X) that address the issue.
Oh well, not surprised, just like Tesla to know just how well they are killing their 12V batteries. I guess that's good in that it probably led them to upgrade to the DC/DC charger. :rolleyes:
 

Kim.T

Member
Sep 14, 2015
75
190
Denmark
....

A standby supply can't be retrofitted as this would mean replacing the main LV harness, upgrading the HV battery to a 2.0 pack, replacing the MCU and BCM, and more. Easily to sell and buy something newer.

.....
Regarding MCU2 upgrade. You have earlier mentioned that updating to MCU2 in cars with no standby supply would lead to larger vampire drain. I think earlier you mentioned that this was implemented in mid '15.
My 70D S' birthday was on 3. jul 2015, has my car a standby supply - I'm considering upgrading to MCU2
 

hpartsch

Member
Aug 6, 2014
626
437
wa
Correct. The pumps and fans used in Tesla cars do not suffer from wear and tear. They are only mechanical. /S
I disagree based on my experience... I didn't complain anything about the pumps btw...
1622806008327.png
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,502
4,425
Future
I disagree based on my experience... I didn't complain anything about the pumps btw...
View attachment 669454

I hope you noticed that my statement was sarcastic (i.e. the /S at the end).

But a question for you: after they replaced all three coolant pumps in your car with the 2nd gen, did your supercharging speed improve?

(I've a Feb/2015 S85 and not sure what coolant pumps generation I have).
 

JimmyB

Member
Sep 7, 2014
138
94
Washington, DC
Regarding MCU2 upgrade. You have earlier mentioned that updating to MCU2 in cars with no standby supply would lead to larger vampire drain. I think earlier you mentioned that this was implemented in mid '15.
My 70D S' birthday was on 3. jul 2015, has my car a standby supply - I'm considering upgrading to MCU2

I wouldn’t let it put you off - I upgraded my Apr 15 build 85D to MCU2, the vampire drain increase is observable via TeslaMate but it’s not an issue in everyday use.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,692
11,812
Hickory, NC, USA
Regarding MCU2 upgrade. You have earlier mentioned that updating to MCU2 in cars with no standby supply would lead to larger vampire drain. I think earlier you mentioned that this was implemented in mid '15.
My 70D S' birthday was on 3. jul 2015, has my car a standby supply - I'm considering upgrading to MCU2

There are updated pumps that are a little quieter, but internally seem to be the same just more mass to absorb sound around them. Not 100% sure why they would replace them with regard to a slow supercharging complaint... unless it was an issue with something not reporting in as it should causing the thermal management system to be more cautious...... or just a "look, we did something" type of "fix".
Regarding MCU2 upgrade. You have earlier mentioned that updating to MCU2 in cars with no standby supply would lead to larger vampire drain. I think earlier you mentioned that this was implemented in mid '15.
My 70D S' birthday was on 3. jul 2015, has my car a standby supply - I'm considering upgrading to MCU2

I believe these started going into 90 packs first, then eventually in all refresh cars and all X's. If I had to bet, your 70 does not have one.
 
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Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,502
4,425
Future
I posted a couple of charts a while back, here: To MCU2 or not to MCU2?

I can send you more recent data if you like - I don’t have time to do precise calculations right now, but I have a suspicion vampire drain is somewhere around 50% greater post-MCU2. Everyone’s situation will be a little different, though.

Yes, I now recall you posting the data in the other thread. Forgot it was you. Thanks again.
 

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