Tesla has said there is no safety issue. Pre 19.16 people can remain where they are safety. Unless Tesla files a bulletin informing owners of the dangers of not updating as is legally required, there's no worry of safety and it's all just Tesla trying to steal from them. It's a serious federal crime for them to lie about and conceal something that severe.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
Ferrycraigs
Member
Thank you very much for replying. Am I sure I have the issue? Well without knowing what the issue is;
I know my Capacity has suddenly dropped from 68 kWh to 59 kWhs
I know my % Consumption has increased in line with that reduced capacity, although my Wh/mi has remained constant, which supports a reduced capacity.
I know that at the new 100% cell voltage is now 4.07V
So, based on both of those I would say I’m pretty sure, if I don’t have the actual issue, I certainly have been capped. I am unclear why updating might confirm I have the issue. How so? Unless you think I haven’t yet downloaded 19.16. I have.
I’m reasonably confident that when/if a fix occurs it will be published on here.
But in the meantime I believe that the chargegate update was included within 2019.20.4.2. I am currently on 2019.16.3.2. So I am more than a little bit nervous that if I update now I will download the chargegate update.
When it is posted that a fix is available I would be happy to update as even if I were temporarily affected by chargegate, it would likely be only for a limited time.
Having reduced range can be mitigated.
Doubling, or significantly increasing the charge time is a much more inconvenient problem. So inconvenient I definitely prefer to stop all future downloads until I hear that something positive awaits. Unless I have it all wrong (very possible) updating now might put me in a worse position than I currently am. But I hope I am always open to advice.
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Ferrycraigs
Member
I hate what Tesla are doing.
I love my car.
Sadly my car can no longer does what I need it to do, because of the capping.
I have therefore considered selling it.
Any potential buyer of my 3 year old car will see a battery that has apparently degraded by 16% after only 3 years.
They will see an EV that can’t even make 200 miles when full.
If the compare it to another 3 year old S70 that hasn’t been capped, they are likely to see a battery that has degraded by less than 5% and has a range in excess of 200 miles.
Who in their right mind would buy my car?
So I am stuck with it.
What a good job I love it and it has never let me down. The complete opposite of my view of its parents.
I would hang in their a little longer I think this will be resolved hopefully anyhow. My local service center recommended a new battery based on increases charging time and reduced range they are waiting for approval from corporate. I will update with any new info I get.
I can only read this as : packs that have the bad condition carry an incremental safety risk on the old firmware that charges according to the old profile. But the newer firmware does not allow that anymore and with that new charging profile there is no risk anymore. The condition is still present, it's just not dangerous anymore.
If that's the case, I think Tesla is walking a very thin legal line here. It's very reasonable to argue that Tesla has a duty to inform customers that choose not to upgrade what risk they are running.
Ferrycraigs
Member
I have always assumed that any capping could only be applied across every cell throughout the pack, ie every Vmax is altered. This comment makes me wonder if it’s possible to cap one (or more) Module only, isolating it from the pack, which would of course reduce the overall capacity. I have no idea if this is even technically possible.
wk057 said:
"Affected packs with the range loss/charge cap/etc are not any more likely to explode or otherwise suffer another kind of catastrophic failure than any other pack."
wk057 also said:
"No one ever said it wasn't a safety issue."
If it can be both (as wk057 stated), one can conclude that all cars probably have this safety issue.
"Affected packs with the range loss/charge cap/etc are not any more likely to explode or otherwise suffer another kind of catastrophic failure than any other pack."
wk057 also said:
"No one ever said it wasn't a safety issue."
If it can be both (as wk057 stated), one can conclude that all cars probably have this safety issue.
I may be wrong, but I think the important word is "cap", lost between /'s.
With cap/update: no problem.
Without cap/update: no comment.
That's how I read it.
Condition X could be a safety issue while condition Z is not.
2019.16 may have an algorithm that seeks condition X and applies the 4.07V cap.
The algorithm seeking X could detect Z and apply this cap.
The cap is not the most appropriate action for Z, but “better” to cap 100, 200 or 2,000 vehicles than stop seeking X and leave a safety issue undetected.
On edit: I removed some further speculation and wish to clarify this is all of course speculation based on the limited information available.
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Ferrycraigs
Member
Not so. I only suffer from batterygate. I do not suffer from chargegate. I believe I don’t suffer from chargegate because I stopped downloading updates prior to the chargegate update. I am advised I should update. That is advice I am struggling with. Really struggling because I consider it to be given by someone with far greater expertise, and knowledge, than me. But in the absence of facts, I can see no sensible reason to upgrade until I have heard a solution has been found. But I am also conscious I literally don’t know what I’m talking about.
Ferrycraigs
Member
Well I am hanging in there. I have no real choice. I can’t sell my car!
I suffer from both. Honestly, I wish I was suffering from the dieselgate, much simpler to comprehend
Well heard back from the local service center and they are replacing my current battery pack under a goodwill gesture since I just bought my used Tesla from them in May. They told me their was nothing wrong with it but will try and get a test before they take it out tentatively scheduled for November.
Congrats! Make sure your new one is not capped.
I will request a charge to 90% for sure before accepting.
If your battery has the issue, the chargerate/range is capped, thereby "resolving" the issue.
If your battery have the issue and you refuse to update, your battery constitutes a safety hazard.
Therefore you should update.
Atleast thats how I understood wk057.
If your battery have the issue and you refuse to update, your battery constitutes a safety hazard.
Therefore you should update.
Atleast thats how I understood wk057.
I don't think it'd be "healthy" to discharge a pack with mis-matched modules that have a different cap, which is why most EVs do balancing from time to time. As I understand it, the BMS can do balancing per-module. From what I've read on the subject, there is a circuitboard that can at least report the minimum and maximum cell voltage in each module but cells can't be balanced individually.
More speculation on my part but I figure, we don't have anything but speculation at this point so... it's my guess that after the update, the BMS looks at the min and max individual cell voltage in each module and if it finds a module that has a high enough delta (difference between the lowest and highest reported cell voltage in that module), it labels the module as having at least one cell that is "out of spec" and caps you. If there are 444 cells per module and you try to charge that module to spec voltage for the whole module and there are some individual cells in that module that have reduced capacity, you'll end up with some cells overcharged to reach that overall module voltage. It may be that they reduced the max charge voltage to avoid this, thus "limping" the entire pack to the weakest link (module).
Mike
My interpretation would be that the "Affected packs with range loss/charge cap/etc" are those they have had the capping fix applied. This capping eliminates the safety issue (whether that is fire, explosion, somehow causing weather phenomena, whatever that may be). It would be a safety issue if the battery should have been capped but is not because the owner does not update. The only way to find out right now is to update the software and see if you get the battery cap. Only ones that are capped (or would be capped if they are updated) have the safety issue.
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