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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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Stop all this bunk. It is all about what you, me, or anyone bargained for.

You mean we shouldn't be discussing this? Or shouldn't need to be discussing?

I agree. But that doesn't fix anything.

Or that everyone knew what they were buying into and all this discussion is going over what is obvious?

I agree with that too, except evidently it isn't obvious to everyone.
 
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Sounds like we know what's needed for battery day:

Super-capacitors to take regen load cycles. Similar purpose as F1 KERS.
I am not aware of F1 KERS using super-capacitors. They use flywheels/ Lithium battery ...you are talking 80HP for 6 sec about 400KJ
Good luck finding a supercapacitor with that kind of energy.
Look into Formula E: no KERS!

I would however love to have more Regen on my Tesla. My Bolt has as much regen KW wise than my X with a lighter car weight and smaller battery so not sure why Tesla is not more aggressive.
 
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Isn't there anyone who knows the 85 pack design really well who will respond to some inquisitive questions with factual, verifiable answers? Or even generic responses about technology in general that is similar to that used by Tesla?
There is, @wk057. Too bad the self appointed thread police and a 20 post newbie (who didn't know his technical chops and posting history) drove him off. Since then, there's been a few questions his already answered elsewhere (pack rebuilding/cell matching).
 
Capacitors never make sense in an EV. The cost, volume, and weight are always better used to put in more cells and giving you a larger pack. The "answer" to all the problems is more durable cell chemistry and increased energy density, which is where we are headed. The concern over the number of cells in parallel is misplaced in my opinion.

Could be. I've seen it argued both ways. Not in a position to know first hand what supercaps can do, but have spoken with people in the industry who of course say they are closing the gap.

Why do you feel that there is no issue with cells in parallel? Because they stay very closely matched?
 
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I am not aware of F1 KERS using super-capacitors. They use flywheels/ Lithium battery ...you are talking 80HP for 6 sec about 400KJ
Good luck finding a supercapacitor with that kind of energy.
Look into Formula E: no KERS!

I would however love to have more Regen on my Tesla. My Bolt has as much regen KW wise than my X with a lighter car weight and smaller battery so not sure why Tesla is not more aggressive.

Sorry, did not mean to suggest KERS used supercaps. Just speculating as a means to store energy and take some heavy load off battery.

What max regen power do you see with the Bolt?
 
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Could be. I've seen it argued both ways. Not in a position to know first hand what supercaps can do, but have spoken with people in the industry who of course say they are closing the gap.

Why do you feel that there is no issue with cells in parallel? Because they stay very closely matched?
All packs use cells in parallel. A cell is made up of layers in parallel. Closely matched cells should have minimal drift.
 
All packs use cells in parallel.
A cell is made up of layers in parallel.
Closely matched cells should have minimal drift.

Closely matched cells should have minimal drift. - Agree. Ideally.

A cell is made up of layers in parallel. - You mean the innards of an individual cell? If so, can a single cell get areas of higher and lower resistance within the cell? Are you suggesting there is zero difference between one mega cell (if you could manufacture one) and multiple smaller cells in parallel?
 
It could be likely they are dealing with "a small number" of packs that were manufactured with cells sufficiently substandard to result in earlier failure than the large majority.

That's a good point. In manufacturing large complex systems you assemble thousands of parts from many different suppliers who themselves may have done likewise. It is not uncommon to find new failure modes in the install base or in manufacturing after some have already been shipped. Then comes a potentially long quality process of determining root cause, corrective action to return to normal production, scale and scope of impact, cost to remediate, and finally, what action to take.

Usually there's a process issue somewhere in the supply chain, such as equipment having fallen out of tolerance, humans changing the process, possibly unknowingly, or many other things, such as contamination or new software defects.

Once you know what happened you figure out what to do with material on hand and in customer hands. You try to estimate (usually through accelerated testing) the expected failure rate. If the adjusted overall failure rate falls within the already established limits you may say nothing and just replace as things break, just as you would when things break for other reasons. If the expected failure rate will be high you try to get ahead of it with field notification and remediation plans, often in consultation with the customer.

As widely discussed here, safety and, especially in the computer world, security issues require a very different and specific process. Most companies do NOT want to mess up on these, as the repercussions are extreme.

Which gets us back to conjecture on how Tesla's internal assessment and response maps onto this overall issue management model.
 
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Cells in parallel are at the same voltage and are read as a single large "cell". If some cells in parallel were dead then that cell group would sag more under load than other cell groups and it would reach "full" faster than other groups during charging. Both conditions would be seen by the BMS.


Yes, the BMS should be tracking length of time for bricks to reach set charge voltage and presumably use differences between brick behavior to flag possible issues.

This MIT paper (from 2013 I think) spells out just how critical cell matching is.

http://web.mit.edu/bazant/www/papers/pdf/Gogoana_2013_J_Power_Sources.pdf

What I can't find and suspect I am not likely to find is data regarding how matched Tesla cells remain over longer time frames especially under extreme use cases.
 
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I dont have after market equipment...so how can I measure battery voltages to see if I have good cells

Really by getting the aftermarket equipment. I think it's around $100 all in, depending on which OBD dongle you choose. I was able to route the adapter cable up behind the cubby and have the dongle dangling at the back, right corner of the yacht floor, under the cubby. My wife didn't even notice it, until I had to push the connect button one day.

It's a mixed blessing. I have a cell imbalance that now has me in fear of ending up with capping starting to show.
 
Really by getting the aftermarket equipment. I think it's around $100 all in, depending on which OBD dongle you choose. I was able to route the adapter cable up behind the cubby and have the dongle dangling at the back, right corner of the yacht floor, under the cubby. My wife didn't even notice it, until I had to push the connect button one day.

It's a mixed blessing. I have a cell imbalance that now has me in fear of ending up with capping starting to show.
thank you
 
As far as I know, it has always been advised that slow charging is the best for battery longevity, and I can't see any evidence for that changing.

Nothing in life is perfect, so the designers have to settle for acceptable compromise backed up with a warranty.

Having bricks of parallel connected cells is fundamental to Tesla's current battery design and while they have gone to great lengths to control and monitor what goes on outside the bricks, it would be difficult to monitor each cell within every brick.

This is basic stuff, so any tech will be yawning, but just for focus here now -

Three things being monitored at a brick level are

1) current through the brick
2) voltage across brick (must be same for all cells because they are in parallel. That's pretty much a definition of parallel connection)
3) the cells do NOT have the same current flowing through them. (that is pretty much the other definition of parallel. There are parallel pathways for current to flow which is why small cells are connected that way to sum their individual current capacities)

The problem I see is that while you can measure the voltage for all cells in a brick (since its the same for all) you can't measure current without adding a super low value resistor in series with each cell and measure the volts dropped across those resistors to give you current through each cell.

Internal resistance of each cell already dissipates heat when cells have current flowing, so you could theoretically measure each cell temp to see how hard it is being worked' but your cooling system is working against that idea by trying it's best to keep everything at a uniform constant temperature. However, I guess that both hard-working cells and 'lazy' higher resistance cells both do the same thing under heavy load / high charge rate, but for different reasons. (both get hotter). So elevated brick temperature could signal things going out of whack in that brick. What you are really looking for is uneven heating within the brick I think.

One solution solution is pefect cell matching, but although you can get close, I don't see how you can get perfect. And keep it perfect. Not realistic or necessary.

Re manufacturing battery packs must be a very tricky black art since you would likely need a supply of pre-aged good condition bricks to replace once containing cells that have deteriorated differently.

One mitigation approach that gives you save power from a given number of cells and fewer cells wired in parallel in bricks where you can't 'get at them' is to put more bricks in series and run higher pack voltages.... like 800v designs. This presumably makes switch gear and other electronics harder to design (think running higher compression ratios in ICE) but reduces heat generated).

I think it is important to recognize that most serious engineering design is about mitigating undesirable behavior and optimizing what's desired.

May be we are just starting to appreciate some more inconvenient truths, but that's when engineers need to really earn their keep.Tesla have done incredible things. May be they over-promise. Quite a few examples of that. Sadly, my view is that this practice is so rife / prevelant that you almost can't avoid it in today's markets.

I opted for a non-performance model based on a gut feeling not very well thought through that keeping stresses low on the battery has to be a good thing. The car does everything a need and I love driving it.
The experience of my entire life is that batteries never last forever and that I have a personal aura that accelerates their death.

I bought a Tesla after an eye-opening test drive and serious consideration of the downside risk. My first overriding concern at the time, in spite of the above wasn't how long the battery would last, but how long Tesla itself would last which was very questionable. Of course then my risk concern turned to how well and how long the car would hold up and continue to perform. So far we've gotten well past those issues and I have loved my P85 which amazingly still looks and drives almost like new.

Then to the battery life issue, which is my own personal bugaboo. I decided based on Elon's 8-year warranty, as exuberant as the car itself. My logic was that if the company was intended to survive long-term they must have some substantial basis for confidence the battery pack would hold up, or at least a practical plan to manage refurbishing/replacing it.

It's been a good run and I am STILL holding on to shreds of Elon-scale optimism that it can work out, and have my $100 down for a Cybertruck, but I do wish they would get on with fixing this. :rolleyes: