those are all good points. I didn't realize it was the max charge rate. As you mentioned, unless we have certain number and understand all the conditions under which this data was collected, it's hard to have confidence in statistical validity of the data. So maybe my conclusion was a bit fast. I'll try to look through this in more detail though.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
That's advice I try to follow too but there is so much to keep in mind and that's without the curve balls!
be the change you want. Tesla lost 691gate overseas but nobody in the Americas filed so they never did the right thing in the Americas.
Interpreting the TeslaLogger charge rate max data seems additionally difficult due to it showing charge rate at soc and since soc is using a percentage of the capacity. A more or less degraded or even capacity limited (4,xV cap) battery will have a different nominal/usable full pack capacity, therefore soc is kind of a moving target and subsequently changes the steepness of a given curve. Or to describe it differently: When the capacity degrades, reaching a certain soc needs adding less energy than in in a factory new battery. The other way around: The same module voltage is reached at different soc depending on the overall calculated capacity. Thus comparing the soc relative to the nominal/usable full pack capacity without compensating will result in a distorted picture.
AFAIK abetterrouteplanner is trying to mitigate these inherent differences by comparing the charging times for adding 40kWh to a battery having 10kWh soc equivalent. The soc is, as described above, different for every individual battery and dependent on either the usable full pack or nominal full pack capacity reported by the BMS.
abrp battery charging data November 2018
abrp supercharging data August 2019
According to their standard benchmark, topping from 10kWh to 50kWh for an Model S 85 in average took 27 minutes in 2018, 29 minutes in May 2019 and 34 minutes in August 2019. My own capacity and charge rate limited S 85 took 49 minutes for adding these 40kWh.
Adding to the pile this example of non linear displayed soc information try the following in your Tesla, I've confirmed several times with different firmware versions:
Next time you plug into a Supercharger notice a negative soc when reaching the next way point, perhaps you need to choose "go on" (or similar, my car is DE-DE localized) routing in the CD to show the negative soc. For the argument, lets say it shows 25% soc present and -15% soc at arrival. While charging, you see your soc climbing and equally the arrival soc. Up until the arrival soc reaches 5%, then it halts for a delta of 6% and then keeps rising again, at least that is what mine is doing:
26% soc battery equals -14% soc at next SC
27% soc battery equals -13% soc at next SC
28% soc battery equals -12% soc at next SC
29% soc battery equals -11% soc at next SC
30% soc battery equals -10% soc at next SC
…
44% soc battery equals 4% soc at next SC
45% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
46% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
47% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
48% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
49% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
50% soc battery equals 5% soc at next SC!!
51% soc battery equals 6% soc at next SC
52% soc battery equals 7% soc at next SC
53% soc battery equals 8% soc at next SC
54% soc battery equals 9% soc at next SC
...
This "gap" is also present in the shown range, when having a high soc, the range includes a buffer which incrementally will be subtracted from your remaining range, yet this behavior is more difficult to notice, partly due to not driving at a constant Wh similar to e.g. typical range.
With these two examples I like to point out that we try to compare statistical data while we presume the soc in % as shown in the IC/CD is shown linear which is, at least, not the same in the navigational subsystem or the calculated remaining range. Also the soc in % depends on the usable/nominal full pack capacity reported by each individual battery.
On the opposite hand, Tesla itself uses the added energy for invoicing, this criteria combined with time passed plus the individual usable/nominal full pack capacity and remaining usable capacity at the start and end of the charging session should produce more comparable data.
Very best regards!
jpvdheijn
Active Member
I didn't expect bjorn to make this kudos for him.
Beat me to it, I was just going to post that. I hope this issue gets more traction. Charging to 80% takes an average of 12 minutes more. That added 2.5 hours of charging time to my recent round-trip to California. In 2013 Tesla included in its "estimated cost savings" time not spent at the gas pump at $45/hour. Using that same logic, Tesla owes me $112.50 for my recent road trip.
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That can pop on for temperature also, and not just battery temperature, but also drive unit temperature. Mere mortals like myself can't easily tell what is causing the power limit. I have seen it limit power on motorway trips routinely at state of charge levels that wouldn't be an issue when driving slower. On long days of summer driving the car and motor don't really cool down, so if you demand full power, it won't be long before thermal limits kick in.
In some states here we have Toll Booths that we have to stop for. I might be guilty of flooring it coming out of the toll booth, and state of charge doesn't seem to matter, applying full power from a dead stop to 75mph after driving for hours at high speed always seems to trigger power limits (at least during the summer). I would guess the D model cars have less issues with this, although understanding if they do or not would help understand if it is a battery limitation or a drive unit limitation. D Model S uses it's front motor during cruise, but throws power to the rear motor during high power, so in theory the rear motor should be cooler as it isn't in use before the high power demand.
DJRas
Member
Completely off topic... other than Hyundai says to NOT park these cars in the garage.
Hyundai now says recalled vehicles should be parked outside
Hyundai now says recalled vehicles should be parked outside
And it appears that Hyundai was first aware of the fires in April of 2018, and it took them until now, ~2.5 years, to determine the cause and issue a recall. And NHTSA is already questioning if their recall is appropriate and doing enough to resolve the problem. (Which is probably why they changed their mind and now say that the cars should be parked outside.)
Of course they have a history of not taking safety seriously with their last ABS related fire recall, their "fix" was to make it so the car would only catch fire while it was on, instead of also while it was parked. There is now a class action suit by people that think Hyundai should provide a better, more complete, fix. (Which they should.)
As a note, and to bring this somewhat on-topic, through all of this there was no public information available from NHTSA that the research was happening. (Just to prove the point that Chaserr has no idea if Tesla has properly communicated the details of their battery fire investigation(s) or not.)
BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
But then everyone knows you drive a Hyundai.
We know the 60 day legal deadline to notify us passed last year. Communication with the NHTSA has happened already but not voluntarily. We will be publicly informed around the same time fines are levied and that won't be until the investigation is complete and it's all over. Legally we must be notified within 60 days of discovery if the problem so all along we have been discussing those confirmed crimes. We conjecture a lot about how many more are still hidden, how deep the cover up goes and whether any one will die to make this happen sooner, but we know for certain Tesla took action to mitigate fires and didn't notify the NHTSA within the 5 and 60 day periods that separate legal from illegal. At this point we are probably all just hoping Tesla thinks of a decent story to recover from the shame when it's public.
I know this thread is concentrating on "older" Teslas BUT I just had a model Y for 2 days (thanks local SC) and I see the same issues in how Tesla potentially misrepresents range (as in my X75D)
Model Y AWD (not performance) 3k miles on it:
I had a 100 percent charged up car and ran it down to 0 percent. Rated on the car is 316mi; I got 258 miles while averaging 259Wh/mi
That car rated range is based on 248Wh/mi so I was only 5 percent off...which is amazing as I was driving aggressively. Obviously I should have gotten more out of battery 316* 248/259 = 302 not 258.
Using post#1 battery capacity formula the Y kept telling me 78Kwh battery capacity. At end of my trip (again down to zero from 100 percent) the car reported I used 67Kwh...I see how you might have a 4Kwh included in the 78Kwh. but that again leave me with 44 miles and 7Kwh not accounted for. ...Maybe "cooling" or "warming" battery (70F day)?
Kind of getting tired at Tesla lack of transparency! Aren't people with newer cars not noticing?
Model Y AWD (not performance) 3k miles on it:
I had a 100 percent charged up car and ran it down to 0 percent. Rated on the car is 316mi; I got 258 miles while averaging 259Wh/mi
That car rated range is based on 248Wh/mi so I was only 5 percent off...which is amazing as I was driving aggressively. Obviously I should have gotten more out of battery 316* 248/259 = 302 not 258.
Using post#1 battery capacity formula the Y kept telling me 78Kwh battery capacity. At end of my trip (again down to zero from 100 percent) the car reported I used 67Kwh...I see how you might have a 4Kwh included in the 78Kwh. but that again leave me with 44 miles and 7Kwh not accounted for. ...Maybe "cooling" or "warming" battery (70F day)?
Kind of getting tired at Tesla lack of transparency! Aren't people with newer cars not noticing?
When does the 60-day clock start? You will notice in the recent Hyundai case the public wasn't notified until after they identified the root cause. Which was almost 2 and a half years from when they first knew there was a potential fire problem. So obviously the clock doesn't start at the time an issue is first seen. We don't know if Tesla has identified the root cause of the fires yet. Or if they have that they are all from defects, or even the same root cause.
How do you know they haven't notified NHTSA as they are required to? (That is not public communications.)
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