Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Droschke]

What is the price for a new 90kw battery pack installed? Not a refurbished one, a brand new battery pack

Value of 2012 Model S Signature P85 w/out working battery

So final update... I picked up my car yesterday afternoon and the final cost was as follows: Charging to 100% last night got me to 256 miles, an improvement of 38 miles from my old battery. While at the SC I requested all diagnostics from my old battery on the several occasions I complained...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Gixx1300R]

Value of 2012 Model S Signature P85 w/out working battery

So final update... I picked up my car yesterday afternoon and the final cost was as follows: Charging to 100% last night got me to 256 miles, an improvement of 38 miles from my old battery. While at the SC I requested all diagnostics from my old battery on the several occasions I complained...

teslamotorsclub.com

OK I see that the price of the battery pack is 19K. Am I correct? Is that a new pack or refurbished?

 

[Droschke]

OK I see that the price of the battery pack is 19K. Am I correct? Is that a new pack or refurbished?

That's Tesla's invoice for a new pack. You need to add taxes to it.

 

[Gixx1300R]

That's Tesla's invoice for a new pack. You need to add taxes to it.

ok, what are Tesla's prices for a refurbished pack?

 

[krsgio]

ok, what are Tesla's prices for a refurbished pack?

I believe I saw 12k last time I saw a post about it

 

[raphy3]

You could join the battery warranty program at 057

 

[Gixx1300R]

I believe I saw 12k last time I saw a post about it

O

You could join the battery warranty program at 057

I have already contaced him about a 90Kwh battery

 

[raphy3]

O

I have already contaced him about a 90Kwh battery

Sorry, I misunderstood; sounds like you need a new battery right now. I somehow projected my worrying about the future of the battery onto you (hoping not to need a new one here for a while!)

 

[Gixx1300R]

Sorry, I misunderstood; sounds like you need a new battery right now. I somehow projected my worrying about the future of the battery onto you (hoping not to need a new one here for a while!)

I just noticed price discrepancies in the refurbished battery pack prices from Tesla

 

[wk057]

Tesla used to internally have a rating system for the refurbished packs, and on remanned ones the 2 characters before the end letter in the refurb part numbers used to be related to the quality of the refurbished pack. Now they seem to hide that as far as the part number goes, but still seem to price them based on the actual quality of the refurb pack (available or targeted), with the cheapest being the worst available ones based on my limited dataset... and based on what I've seen these low end packs are pretty trashy.

I recently upgraded a 2013 60 (real 60, not software locked) to an 85 for a customer, and their core pack was a Tesla refurb they purchased for ~$10k after taxes after suffering a failure. They originally quoted $14k, but after the customer went back and forth with them a bit, they somehow managed to "find" him this lower price on the replacement... which was invoiced exactly the same as the original estimate. Gets it back, and 100% charge on the refurb pack is 159 miles (~45 kWh). (184 on their original core pack before it had errors, which Tesla kept, and about ~202 is new.) After complaining to them about this, they basically said too bad so sad, and that they don't guarantee any particular capacity or capacity match on customer-pay refurb packs whatsoever, but under warranty they have to match them to within a certain margin. How sketchy is that? You pay them for a replacement pack, and you get the bottom of the barrel, but if it fails under warranty you get something better... maybe even new. Oh, and this pack won't even hit 20kW with dual chargers, and peaks at like 30kW at a supercharger for like 10 seconds before dropping to < 20kW. Heck of a screw job, IMO.

Anyway...

Tesla's refurbs are pretty weird too, with almost every single 70/75 refurb originally starting out life as an 85 or 90, respectively, but with them downgrading them from 16 to 14 modules by removing up to two bad modules (since, as I keep trying to educate people on, you can't replace bad modules). 85 or 90 refurbs tend to be 85 or 90 packs with BMS hardware issues of some kind that could actually be repaired, usually by replacing that hardware or by fixing things like cell sense leads using specialized equipment.

 

[AustinP]

…Gets it back, and 100% charge on the refurb pack is 159 miles (~45 kWh). (184 on their original core pack before it had errors, which Tesla kept, and about ~202 is new.) After complaining to them about this, they basically said too bad so sad, and that they don't guarantee any particular capacity or capacity match on customer-pay refurb packs whatsoever, …

Oh, and this pack won't even hit 20kW with dual chargers, and peaks at like 30kW at a supercharger for like 10 seconds before dropping to < 20kW. Heck of a screw job, IMO.

These two key bits of information are essential, thanks for sharing.
So sad to read how some part of Tesla is allowing and doing so wrong to (quite often) their most faithful supporters.

 

[lgli]

and peaks at like 30kW at a supercharger for like 10 seconds before dropping to < 20kW

What is limiting the SuC rate? Battery hardware (degradation?) or the BMS?

 

[Gixx1300R]

Tesla used to internally have a rating system for the refurbished packs, and on remanned ones the 2 characters before the end letter in the refurb part numbers used to be related to the quality of the refurbished pack. Now they seem to hide that as far as the part number goes, but still seem to price them based on the actual quality of the refurb pack (available or targeted), with the cheapest being the worst available ones based on my limited dataset... and based on what I've seen these low end packs are pretty trashy.

I recently upgraded a 2013 60 (real 60, not software locked) to an 85 for a customer, and their core pack was a Tesla refurb they purchased for ~$10k after taxes after suffering a failure. They originally quoted $14k, but after the customer went back and forth with them a bit, they somehow managed to "find" him this lower price on the replacement... which was invoiced exactly the same as the original estimate. Gets it back, and 100% charge on the refurb pack is 159 miles (~45 kWh). (184 on their original core pack before it had errors, which Tesla kept, and about ~202 is new.) After complaining to them about this, they basically said too bad so sad, and that they don't guarantee any particular capacity or capacity match on customer-pay refurb packs whatsoever, but under warranty they have to match them to within a certain margin. How sketchy is that? You pay them for a replacement pack, and you get the bottom of the barrel, but if it fails under warranty you get something better... maybe even new. Oh, and this pack won't even hit 20kW with dual chargers, and peaks at like 30kW at a supercharger for like 10 seconds before dropping to < 20kW. Heck of a screw job, IMO.

Anyway...

Tesla's refurbs are pretty weird too, with almost every single 70/75 refurb originally starting out life as an 85 or 90, respectively, but with them downgrading them from 16 to 14 modules by removing up to two bad modules (since, as I keep trying to educate people on, you can't replace bad modules). 85 or 90 refurbs tend to be 85 or 90 packs with BMS hardware issues of some kind that could actually be repaired, usually by replacing that hardware or by fixing things like cell sense leads using specialized equipment.

Jason, that is why I made the post. Tesla is doing some sketchy stuff with the refurbed packs. I highly doubt they are refurbishing packs. They are merely testing them to certain parameters and selling them without checking each module, changing the contacts or upgrading the high voltage pyro fuse. I have seen tesla charge as much as 22K for a refurbed pack, If that is the case what is the price for a brand new pack from Tesla.

 

[wk057]

What is limiting the SuC rate? Battery hardware (degradation?) or the BMS?

BMS limits it when the cells peak out to beyond expected voltages earlier than expected. For example, if you pump 100A into a pack where the cells are at 3.5V, you would expect to see a voltage rise at the cell level due to internal resistance as it absorbs that energy. The measured cell voltage might be pushed to 4.0V or so. If the measured voltage is beyond max allowed (4.2V in most cases) then even if the power being pushed in is well below expected, it can't push the voltage higher than max, or more than a particular delta that would result in too much heat being generated.

Jason, that is why I made the post. Tesla is doing some sketchy stuff with the refurbed packs. I highly doubt they are refurbishing packs. They are merely testing them to certain parameters and selling them without checking each module, changing the contacts or upgrading the high voltage pyro fuse. I have seen tesla charge as much as 22K for a refurbed pack, If that is the case what is the price for a brand new pack from Tesla.

Last I knew Tesla would only sell a new pack with the return of a core pack... and since they don't make anything except the 100 packs (and the weird 14 module 85 packs based on the 100 modules) anymore, I'm not 100% sure what they're selling to folks who want a new 60/70/75/85/90.

Plus, getting an actual new pack price from them is impossible, since they won't just sell you a new pack. You have to give them your old one.

 

[Gixx1300R]

BMS limits it when the cells peak out to beyond expected voltages earlier than expected. For example, if you pump 100A into a pack where the cells are at 3.5V, you would expect to see a voltage rise at the cell level due to internal resistance as it absorbs that energy. The measured cell voltage might be pushed to 4.0V or so. If the measured voltage is beyond max allowed (4.2V in most cases) then even if the power being pushed in is well below expected, it can't push the voltage higher than max, or more than a particular delta that would result in too much heat being generated.



Last I knew Tesla would only sell a new pack with the return of a core pack... and since they don't make anything except the 100 packs (and the weird 14 module 85 packs based on the 100 modules) anymore, I'm not 100% sure what they're selling to folks who want a new 60/70/75/85/90.

Plus, getting an actual new pack price from them is impossible, since they won't just sell you a new pack. You have to give them your old one.

I can say for sure that is 100% against the law here in Florida. You have the right to ask for your old parts to be returned if you are paying for the repair. It is a different story if the parts are under warranty.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

I can say for sure that is 100% against the law here in Florida. You have the right to ask for your old parts to be returned if you are paying for the repair. It is a different story if the parts are under warranty.

It's probably something like $100,000+ for a new battery without the "core charge" of returning your old battery. So yeah, someone could ask for it back but I dont think anyone in their right mind would do that.

 

[Lewis88]

Whelp, S85 and got the dreaded warning yesterday, range reduced greatly and could not engine brake or charge.

After some time I finally managed to charge it back up.

Looks like module 7 has a defect, limiting the maximum charge to the 4.2V Cell-block.

What kind of range can I expect? The car tells me 48kWh and thus 200km. I expect the 3.578 will drop to, say, 3.2V and the car will just die on me way sooner? It looks like the voltages are getting more and more out of hand.

I would like to get to work tomorrow (70km). And I can only get to a Tesla using an appointment in the app in 3 weeks from now.

Also, I see getting a replacement battery means you are either lucky or not.

Thanks.

 

[MP3Mike]

It's probably something like $100,000+ for a new battery without the "core charge" of returning your old battery. So yeah, someone could ask for it back but I dont think anyone in their right mind would do that.

Last I heard when someone requested to keep their old pack they were told the core charge was $15k.

 

[wk057]

Last I heard when someone requested to keep their old pack they were told the core charge was $15k.

When they released the 90 packs and were offering upgrades (2015?), I tried to pull the trigger on it and wanted to keep my 85 pack. They initially told me $22,500 for the 90 plus $2,500 to keep my core pack. After paying the invoice, they cancelled the service a couple days later and refunded me and explained that they wouldn't let me keep the original pack and would only do the purchase if I let them keep my 85 pack for $2,500.

I've heard similar stories over the years... and in fact, I always encourage customers to try and get Tesla to let them keep their core packs whenever I hear about someone buying a replacement pack from Tesla and offering to buy their core from them if they can manage to pull it off. So far no one has.

First I've heard of a $15,000 core. That's pretty steep.

 

[Gixx1300R]

When they released the 90 packs and were offering upgrades (2015?), I tried to pull the trigger on it and wanted to keep my 85 pack. They initially told me $22,500 for the 90 plus $2,500 to keep my core pack. After paying the invoice, they cancelled the service a couple days later and refunded me and explained that they wouldn't let me keep the original pack and would only do the purchase if I let them keep my 85 pack for $2,500.

I've heard similar stories over the years... and in fact, I always encourage customers to try and get Tesla to let them keep their core packs whenever I hear about someone buying a replacement pack from Tesla and offering to buy their core from them if they can manage to pull it off. So far no one has.

First I've heard of a $15,000 core. That's pretty steep.

Tesla repaired my DC to DC converter about 4 years ago. When the work was completed I asked for my old parts back. The service center manager explained to me that Tesla will not return old parts. I informed him that Tesla was breaking Florida law and as a Service Manager he should know that. I forwarded him a copy of the law. I got my old parts back. (paragraph 5) Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine