Supercharger blocking? Elon promises a solution

[dhanson865]

The solution needs to be consistent with the idea that superchargers are for long distance travel. Doubling down on the inconvenience of charging (as opposed to gassing up) by forcing users to babysit their car while it charges on a road trip is, frankly, a dumb idea.

We're supposed to be able to take our kids to go eat or somehow make use of the time it takes to charge. It is on Tesla to find a way to get our cars parked elsewhere if the stall is needed.

Now the local supercharger abusers, that's a different matter.

I think a 2 hour limit (grace period) would cover the what ifs and still dissuade someone from leaving their car there for 4-8 hours.

Worst case scenario is the Supercharger isn't putting out full charge rates and someone is sitting there pulling 20KW until they give up and drive to the next supercharger. It doesn't happen at all superchargers but there are several locations this has happened at.

I wouldn't want to have to appeal a fee repeatedly because the supercharger isn't working at normal speed for days, weeks, or months at a time (and yes that has been the case for multiple supercharger locations).

Just do the math for the worst case if someone drove in at 5% charge and needs to charge enough to drive to the next supercharger (say 150 miles) and the supercharger is stuck at 20 KW. I think 2 hours would get you enough charge to drive off even in that worst case.

Then your worst case gives leeway for normal charge rates + being in a restaurant or shop or whatever and not having to run back at the exact end of charge but still dissuades the "supercharger next to an office building" user from leaving the car there all work day.

Maybe some day down the road when there is battery backup at every supercharger (powerwall 3 or 4 by then I'm guessing) we won't have issues with power companies not supplying stable power to the superchargers and we can tighten the allowed charging/parked time but until then...

 

[apacheguy]

The grace period should not begin until charging completes. This eliminates the need to worry about under performing SpC.

 

[Tam]

The blog came out:

Improving Supercharger Availability

Supercharger Idle Fee

Improving Supercharger Availability
The Tesla Team December 16, 2016

We designed the Supercharger network to enable a seamless, enjoyable road trip experience. Therefore, we understand that it can be frustrating to arrive at a station only to discover fully charged Tesla cars occupying all the spots. To create a better experience for all owners, we’re introducing a fleet-wide idle fee that aims to increase Supercharger availability.

We envision a future where cars move themselves once fully charged, enhancing network efficiency and the customer experience even further. Until then, we ask that vehicles be moved from the Supercharger once fully charged. A customer would never leave a car parked by the pump at a gas and the same thinking applies with Superchargers.

The Tesla app allows owners to remotely monitor their vehicle, alerting them when their charge is nearly complete and again once fully charged. For every additional minute a car remains connected to the Supercharger, it will incur a $0.40 idle fee. If the car is moved within 5 minutes, the fee is waived. To be clear, this change is purely about increasing customer happiness and we hope to never make any money from it.



Supercharger Idle Fee

We designed the Supercharger network to enable a seamless, enjoyable road trip experience. Therefore, we understand that it can be frustrating to arrive at a station only to discover fully charged Tesla cars occupying all the spots. To create a better experience for all owners, we’re introducing a fleet-wide idle fee that aims to increase Supercharger availability.

We envision a future where cars move themselves once fully charged, enhancing network efficiency and the customer experience even further. Until then, we ask that vehicles be moved from the Supercharger once fully charged. A customer would never leave a car parked by the pump at a gas and the same thinking applies with Superchargers.

The Tesla app allows owners to remotely monitor their vehicle, alerting them when their charge is nearly complete and again once fully charged. For every additional minute a car remains connected to the Supercharger, it will incur a $0.40 idle fee. If the car is moved within 5 minutes, the fee is waived. To be clear, this change is purely about increasing customer happiness and we hope to never make any money from it.

We’re excited to increase availability during long distance travel and think this change will make the Supercharging experience far better for everyone.

Idle Fees By Country

Country Fee
United States USD $0.40
Canada CAN $0.50

Show pricing for all countries



How will I be billed?
You will be billed for any idle fees incurred at your next Service Center visit.

How do I know when I’ve incurred an idle fee?
The Tesla mobile app notifies you both when charging nears completion and again when fully done. Additional notifications will alert you when idle fees are incurred.

Which cars can incur idle fees?
All Model S and Model X cars can incur idle fees.

Does the idle fee charge anything while you’re still charging?
No, an idle fee is only applied once a charge session is complete. At this point, the car is no longer Supercharging and the spot should be made available for the next driver.

Do idle fees apply if there are Supercharger spots still available?
Yes, idle fees apply to any car occupying a Supercharger stall once the charge session is complete.

Is there an upper limit on the idle fee?
No, idle fees will continue to accrue if the car is not moved within five minutes after the charge session is complete.

Do taxes apply?
Supercharger idle fees include tax.

Do idle fees apply to Destination Charging locations?
No, idle fees only apply to Superchargers.



Idle Fees By Country

Country Fee
United States USD $0.40
Canada CAN $0.50
Austria 0.35 €
Belgium € 0.35
Croatia HRK 2.70
Czech Republic 9.50 CSK
Denmark kr. 2.60
Finland € 0.35
France 0.35 €
Germany 0.35 €
Italy € 0.35
Luxembourg € 0.35
Netherlands € 0.35
Norway kr. 3.25
Poland 1.50 PLN
Slovakia 0.35 €
Slovenia 0.35 €
Spain 0.35 €
Sweden 3.20 kr
Switzerland CHF 0.40
UK £ 0.30
Australia AUS $0.55
China CNY ¥ 2.60
Hong Kong HK $3.10
Japan JPN ¥ 43.00

 

[Zoltrix77]

What is considered "Charged"? If you set the charge level to 90% is 90% considered charged or still 100%?

Great idea however.

 

[MP3Mike]

What is considered "Charged"? If you set the charge level to 90% is 90% considered charged or still 100%?

It would have to mean fully charged to the set level, otherwise you could just set it to 90% and park forever with no fee.

 

[Tam]

What is considered "Charged"?

That's the level that you preset whether 25%, 90%, 100%... as once that level is done, the charging will stop and the idle fee will start with a 5 minute grace period.

 

[Zoltrix77]

That's the level that you preset whether 25%, 90%, 100%... as once that level is done, the charging will stop and the idle fee will start with a 5 minute grace period.

My point is that if you are right, plenty of people are likely to have it set at 100% all the time whilst supercharging now to get more "free parking time".

Adam.

 

[dhanson865]

My point is that if you are right, plenty of people are likely to have it set at 100% all the time whilst supercharging now to get more "free parking time".

Adam.

Especially because the taper slows down charging so much as you approach 100%.

 

[Tam]

...people are likely to have it set at 100% all the time...

True!

For determined owners, they will find any loophole they can.

And yes, 100% is one very obvious loophole.

And yes, it is completely legal.

It's the same way as to declare bankruptcy 6 times because it's legal to not pay back money to others and not pay taxes for many years. But I doubt most people would do it just because they love to find a loophole to hurt other people even when it's completely legal.

 

[TacC]

In the long run, consistently charging to 100% is more expensive than $0.40.

 

[aesculus]

I am all for this, but first they need to deliver an Android app that reliably sends out notices. Mine has stopped receiving supercharger status for a few weeks now.

 

[paulkva]

Overall I think Tesla's plan makes sense as a reasonable approach to reducing supercharger abuse. I'm optimistic that idle fees will be a non-issue for the vast majority of supercharging sessions. A few thoughts:

• I'm a little surprised that the grace period is just 5 minutes -- I would've guessed at least 15 -- but that should only mean that a little extra planning is needed when supercharging.
• $0.40/min = $24/hour, which should be a good deterrent for most people. I can say I'm deterred.
• It won't eliminate "abuse" by fleet vehicles or by locals who are able (but refuse) to charge at home or work, but that will resolve itself gradually as cars with unlimited free supercharging eventually retire.
  • I put "abuse" in quotes for these cases because I know some people don't consider these cases abusive. I really do NOT think it's worth rehashing that debate here.
• I'm sure there will be some hiccups, at least initially, and I expect they're handling payments at service centers so that humans can make in-person judgment calls and look through logs in real-time. For example:
  • If I get a "charging interrupted" message for any reason, does the idle clock start?
  • If mobile connectivity is bad (either my phone or my car) and I'm not properly notified about completion, do I have any recourse?
  • If I have a meal while charging and the dining establishment delays me, do I have any recourse?
  • I wonder if Tesla will charge idle fees to anyone who parks in a supercharging-only space but doesn't plug in.
    
  • I further wonder if idle fees apply in the same way at spaces marked "supercharging or X minutes general parking."
  • I imagine there are other scenarios I'm not thinking through here...
• I would hope that Tesla will use its judgment to offer (hopefully infrequent) exemptions/waivers/refunds.

I already tend to leave my car set to 100% max charge when I'm supercharging on a long trip, not for any loophole, but simply because any additional energy helps me. I just unplug when I think I have enough charge and I'm ready to leave. Most of the time I'm at 80% or 90% when I unplug. I've gotten close to 100% before but I don't think my car has ever reached "charging complete" in this scenario.

 

[kaj102wiu]

"We envision a future where cars move themselves once fully charged, enhancing network efficiency and the customer experience even further. Until then, we ask that vehicles be moved from the Supercharger once fully charged. One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump and the same rule applies with Superchargers"
I
Except...These "gas station" are also in a mall parking lots and restaurants.. It's going to suck when I take my kids to the mall and have to leave the mall to move my car. Or would these superchargers be excluded somehow?

 

[Drone Flyer]

The wallet hit won't be that effective. I think meeting SC abuse with temporary SC bans would yield the most result. Abuse the SC, get banned for two weeks.

Abuses of the SCs make other Tesla owners' lives miserable, and seriously interfere with multi-leg travel plans. So there should be a serious policy to deter such abuses. Getting to a SC where all stalls are taken by unoccupied cars fully charged would make anyone crazy. It's one thing to wait for your turn, and another to be stuck somewhere for an hour because of inconsiderate abusers. I'm surprised there hasn't been cases of Super Charger Rage yet.

How about a SC ban for life?
That will fix the problem!

 

[TexasEV]

...These "gas station" are also in a mall parking lots and restaurants.. It's going to suck when I take my kids to the mall and have to leave the mall to move my car. Or would these superchargers be excluded somehow?

No, it's the mall superchargers that have the biggest problem, with people plugging in and then shopping for hours. Too bad you think it sucks to have to take a few minutes to leave the mall to move your car to a regular parking space when it's charged. It sucks more to be someone on a long distance trip who stopped to supercharge and had to wait for you or others to finish shopping before they could charge and be on their way.

 

[Tam]

...I wonder if Tesla will charge idle fees to anyone who parks in a supercharging-only space but doesn't plug in.

Right now ICE owners can use this loophole and not be charged because they don't utilize charge cable handshakes for identifications.

Currently, Tesla owners are not billed for being a disconnected squatter just like the case with ICE owners because both groups don't connect charger cables for Identifications. Yes, it's a loophole.

However, in future, Tesla can also go further and uses GPS data to easily charge a Tesla owner disconnected squatter.

At that time, ICE owners can still enjoy being a free squatter without paying fees.

However, Tesla can go further and initiate a camera system and bill them if they want to.

 

[Tam]

Happy squatters!

Twitter

"We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park.
6:52 AM - 17 Dec 2016"

 

[brianman]

$0.40/min = $24/hour

Assuming no taper, 120kW supercharging implies 120kWh/hr. I think it would be silly for Tesla to charge more for parking than charging, so this implies the max they'll likely bill for charging is $0.20/kWh. Lower than I was expecting as a national cap for the U.S.

Good news, as I was mentally preparing for $0.30 / kWh during roadtrips.

 

[nwdiver]

"
Except...These "gas station" are also in a mall parking lots and restaurants.. It's going to suck when I take my kids to the mall and have to leave the mall to move my car. Or would these superchargers be excluded somehow?

That's what destination chargers are for... hopefully Tesla will start adding a couple HPWCs to SCs for people that need some juice but not A LOT and plan to be there for awhile... especially at hotels.

 

[TexasEV]

Assuming no taper, 120kW supercharging implies 120kWh/hr. I think it would be silly for Tesla to charge more for parking than charging, so this implies the max they'll likely bill for charging is $0.20/kWh. Lower than I was expecting as a national cap for the U.S.

Good news, as I was mentally preparing for $0.30 / kWh during roadtrips.

Not silly at all for Tesla to charge more for parking than charging. The purpose of the fee is to be a disincentive to blocking a spot after you're finished charging. It's not for revenue. The charging fee will not be set to discourage charging.