Supercharging to reduce ownership cost of a Model S.

[No2DinosaurFuel]

As long as were picking analogies why not pick analogy of the gym membership. You paid advance for lifetime gym membership and you can go as often as you want. Yes the gym might be full if you go every single day and every single person every single day the business wouldn't function anymore but the gym says please come as often as you want.

Don't they realize that if people take them at their word their business won't work?

You just hit it home on this topic. The gym business survives on this practice. They bank on the fact people are lazy so they can sell to 100 people and have only 1 actually show up. Kind of like tesla supercharging station. They are selling the capability and saying you can use it as much as you want. But they know it will only work for a few people like me and road trippers. So they know it won't affect the congestion of supercharging station in the short term. Once the Model 3 comes out, I don't know if this will still be true if tesla makes supercharging free for the model 3. If I was Elon, I would make it pay per use for the Model 3. Use pricing to exclude people and dynamically change the pricing for the model 3 users to exclude those that don't really need it to prevent congestion. Kind of like what they are doing with parking cost in SF.

I think people at the Harris Ranch Station leave their car in a stall long after a charge is finished in search of all you can eat...I don't care how often you use it (thats what its for...), just get out of the way once you're done.

I totally agree with this one. I was in a situation where I needed a charge with my Spark EV and someone taking the charging port when their car is full. I have seen plenty of people who DONT move their car after they are done charging and block off the charging access. Essentially they are no better than those ICE cars taking up the parking spot. If you are still charging, I don't mind as much, but if you are done. MOVE your damn car!

 

[mknox]

I think of the "free for life" supercharger like an "all you can eat" buffet.

Or conversely, maybe it's like the gym membership. They tell you it's okay to come as often as you like, but build and staff on the assumption that the "New Years Resolutions" will wear off and only a certain percentage of members will actually show up regularly.

 

[Cyclone]

Or conversely, maybe it's like the gym membership. They tell you it's okay to come as often as you like, but build and staff on the assumption that the "New Years Resolutions" will wear off and only a certain percentage of members will actually show up regularly.

Without expressing an opinion on right/wrong, should/should not, I think Hans' analogy is closer here. Food is generally one thing you can cook at home without any special resources unless you want something special. Working out is something you can do at home, but there are many special resources needed unless you want to want basic stuff. Eating out also provides a great convenience vs. the gym is usually about convenience of having the materials without a large initial outlay vs. the "chore" of making a meal yourself.

Thus, I think the buffet restaurant and avoiding other meals to get more value out of the buffet is the better analogy.

 

[mknox]

Without expressing an opinion on right/wrong, should/should not, I think Hans' analogy is closer here.

I simply meant that one buys a gym membership like one buys Supercharger capability (was extra cost option on the 60's and included in the price of the 85's, but either way it was paid for). I can use the gym membership or not and I can use the Superchargers or not (in fact, in Canada, I was shut out of Supercharger access for a long time). The gym will build and staff to it's anticipated usage irrespective of how many members actually signed up (some paying members may rarely come), and I believe Tesla will build out Superchargers in a similar fashion.

 

[Cyclone]

I simply meant that one buys a gym membership like one buys Supercharger capability (was extra cost option on the 60's and included in the price of the 85's, but either way it was paid for). I can use the gym membership or not and I can use the Superchargers or not (in fact, in Canada, I was shut out of Supercharger access for a long time). The gym will build and staff to it's anticipated usage irrespective of how many members actually signed up (some paying members may rarely come), and I believe Tesla will build out Superchargers in a similar fashion.

Ahhh. In that regards, yes, I see and agree that this aspect of Supercharging "accounting" is analogous to a gym's "accounting" of membership.

 

[stopcrazypp]

How often am I allowed to Supercharge before I'm "somewhat unethical?"

Once a week? Once a month?

Again, please read what Tesla actually says we, as owners, SHOULD do, as a cold read, no preconceptions. They absolutely DO say we SHOULD do this.

I almost hesitate to quote again; but this is a direct copy paste from that second page:

How often can I Supercharge?

Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

How often is not the issue, it is the use case.

Tesla explicitly described road trips as a use case that the supercharger network covers (this is very clear in all the supercharger pages and marketing). They have also said people without home charging options (like those living in apartments in cities like London or Shanghai) is a use case it covers.

Thus:
1) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers (roughly same total miles as OP), but only does it for roadtrips, no one would think it unethical in any way.
2) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers for daily driving because they live in a city where no home charging is possible, no one would think it unethical in any way.
3) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers during their long commute because they can't make that commute without it, some people would still think it's a grey area, but it'll generally be accepted because it is similar to scenario 2.
4) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers just so they don't have to pay for home charging (like OP), plenty of people think that is unethical.

So really, the issue is not the amount of usage, but why it's being used that way. Scenario 1&2 Tesla has explicitly said superchargers should be used for. Scenario 3 is grey, but still similar enough to #2. Scenario 4 Tesla has never implied or suggested superchargers be used that way. That is likely why so many people feel it is unethical (and there are so many analogies where people would feel similar in other subjects).

 

[bonnie]

If I was Elon, I would make it pay per use for the Model 3. Use pricing to exclude people and dynamically change the pricing for the model 3 users to exclude those that don't really need it to prevent congestion.

So you want to be able to use it free, locally. But you don't want Model 3 users to have the same privilege because you don't want them blocking a spot for you when you stop by on the way home from work? If I've misrepresented, please clarify.

 

[Max*]

So you want to be able to use it free, locally. But you don't want Model 3 users to have the same privilege because you don't want them blocking a spot for you when you stop by on the way home from work? If I've misrepresented, please clarify.

lol

 

[stopcrazypp]

I really like my analogy on this a few posts back:

Let's say you buy an ICE car from Toyota and Toyota gives you free gasoline for life of your car. The only catch is you need to use their stations to fill up. It happens their gasoline station is on your way to work and you only need to fill up twice or thrice a week at their station. However, you also have the ability to pay $2K to install a fueling station at home and fill up at home. But you will still need to pay for the gasoline you use at your home fueling station.

The reason your gas station analogy doesn't feel unethical is because gas stations are designed to cover daily driving in the first place. You aren't inconveniencing anyone using it in such a manner (there are so many gas stations out there others can use) and the wait time is so short even if you are occupying a space. On the other hand, in almost all cases the supercharger is the only option on a road trip and you can wait up to an hour for someone to leave (the good thing is at least you don't plan to stay that long, so hopefully you stick to that).

 

[gnxs]

How often is not the issue, it is the use case.

Tesla explicitly described road trips as a use case that the supercharger network covers (this is very clear in all the supercharger pages and marketing). They have also said people without home charging options (like those living in apartments in cities like London or Shanghai) is a use case it covers.

Thus:
1) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers (roughly same total miles as OP), but only does it for roadtrips, no one would think it unethical in any way.
2) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers for daily driving because they live in a city where no home charging is possible, no one would think it unethical in any way.
3) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers during their long commute because they can't make that commute without it, some people would still think it's a grey area, but it'll generally be accepted because it is similar to scenario 2.
4) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers just so they don't have to pay for home charging (like OP), plenty of people think that is unethical.

So really, the issue is not the amount of usage, but why it's being used that way. Scenario 1&2 Tesla has explicitly said superchargers should be used for. Scenario 3 is grey, but still similar enough to #2. Scenario 4 Tesla has never implied or suggested superchargers be used that way. That is likely why so many people feel it is unethical (and there are so many analogies where people would feel similar in other subjects).

Tesla has addressed specific scenarios in their literature/marketing as a result of specific criticisms that have been thrown at them (and EV's in general) and their website wording has been updated as different issues have been raised by critics. However, as I was shopping for my Tesla, every one of their employees I dealt with preached the same message and it's spelled out in the Q&A part of the Supercharging page on Tesla's site:

How often can I Supercharge? Is it bad for my battery?
Supercharging does not alter the new vehicle warranty. Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

I know this item has been quoted before, but to me it's as cut and dry as you can get. I guess I've just decided to take their employee(s) and website statements at face value rather that trying to assume they meant that in a conditional context.

 

[davewill]

I almost hesitate to quote again; but this is a direct copy paste from that second page:

How often can I Supercharge?

Customers are free to use the network as much as they like.

I'm not sure why we need to go beyond this. ...

We went beyond this because the OP asked for opinions. We all KNOW that he is free to Supercharge as much as he wants for any reason he wants. He wanted to know what we thought about it. So we told him.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

So you want to be able to use it free, locally. But you don't want Model 3 users to have the same privilege because you don't want them blocking a spot for you when you stop by on the way home from work? If I've misrepresented, please clarify.

Nope you got it right. I am not sure why people are getting this all wrong about "free." Remember the supercharging is already priced into the Model S. Think of it as a feature you paid for when you bought the Model S. The model 3 is cheaper and I think the supercharging feature will NOT be priced in. If Musk does priced supercharging in the model 3's price, then Tesla is obligated to build much more supercharging station both by expanding current stations and building new ones. It would be "Unethical" on Tesla NOT to build a lot more supercharging station. Think of it as overselling insurance and when **** happens, you just go bankrupt like AIG and other companies during the recession.

As for the blocking me out part, I am perfectly fine with the Model 3 users using the station. If it's priced in the car, then I can't really complain about it. Other than make sure Tesla builds a lot more stations. If it's not, and the Model 3 users are paying to charge, again there is nothing I can do about it. At that point, I might re-evaluate my situation and probably get the NEMA 14-50 installed.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason your gas station analogy doesn't feel unethical is because gas stations are designed to cover daily driving in the first place. You aren't inconveniencing anyone using it in such a manner (there are so many gas stations out there others can use) and the wait time is so short even if you are occupying a space. On the other hand, in almost all cases the supercharger is the only option on a road trip and you can wait up to an hour for someone to leave (the good thing is at least you don't plan to stay that long, so hopefully you stick to that).

Funny how you left the second part out...

Here is what I am going to do. I'm going to replace gas with electric and see where this goes:

The reason your electric station analogy doesn't feel unethical is because electric stations are designed to cover daily driving in the first place. You aren't inconveniencing anyone using it in such a manner (there are so many electric stations out there others can use) and the wait time is so short even if you are occupying a space.

Yup Totally agree. Supercharging station can be designed to cover daily driving. There are plenty of other charging stations out there . And my wait time is so short even if I am occupying the space.

Sound to me like you are saying those guys who have the ability to charge at home but charge for hours daily or multiple times a day at the supercharging station are unethical. Great! this doesn't apply to me. Glad we cleared that up.

- - - Updated - - -

How often is not the issue, it is the use case.

Tesla explicitly described road trips as a use case that the supercharger network covers (this is very clear in all the supercharger pages and marketing). They have also said people without home charging options (like those living in apartments in cities like London or Shanghai) is a use case it covers.

Thus:
1) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers (roughly same total miles as OP), but only does it for roadtrips, no one would think it unethical in any way.
2) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers for daily driving because they live in a city where no home charging is possible, no one would think it unethical in any way.
3) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers during their long commute because they can't make that commute without it, some people would still think it's a grey area, but it'll generally be accepted because it is similar to scenario 2.
4) If someone uses 15000 miles per year of superchargers just so they don't have to pay for home charging (like OP), plenty of people think that is unethical.

So really, the issue is not the amount of usage, but why it's being used that way. Scenario 1&2 Tesla has explicitly said superchargers should be used for. Scenario 3 is grey, but still similar enough to #2. Scenario 4 Tesla has never implied or suggested superchargers be used that way. That is likely why so many people feel it is unethical (and there are so many analogies where people would feel similar in other subjects).

1) is totally Legit!
2) is also legit though it would be best to talk to the apt/rental/complex manager to allow for plugs you can use to charge.
3) is probably the worst IMO. They will usually charge daily or multiple times a day and probably will stay a lot longer than 2) and 4) just so they don't have to charge at home.
4) is OK just as long as they don't use it as often or stay too long per session.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here is what I am going to do. I'm going to replace gas with electric and see where this goes:

Yup Totally agree. Supercharging station can be designed to cover daily driving. There are plenty of other charging stations out there . And my wait time is so short even if I am occupying the space.

Sound to me like you are saying those guys who have the ability to charge at home but charge for hours daily or multiple times a day at the supercharging station are unethical. Great! this doesn't apply to me. Glad we cleared that up.

Not even close to what I'm saying. The issue is while superchargers *CAN* be designed to cover daily charging at some point in the future (multiple stations inside a city), at the moment they are not (and not a whole lot of indication Tesla is moving in that direction in the US at least). Currently they are the *only* reasonable option for roadtrips in a Model S (which was the first and main use case described by Tesla). There may be pockets of L2/L1 chargers along some of the routes, but they take hours to charge and if there is someone there already you are out of luck. And other DC charging options are also rare right now. Try planning out a trip down the I5 to see what I mean comparing superchargers to L2/L1 (or even CHAdeMO).

Gas stations on the other hand are already designed for daily driving (one available every couple of blocks). Even if you occupy the "free" station, others can go down the block to fill up and there is no inconvenience. A 5-10 minute visit is enough to fill up for a week or two of use. This is a completely different scenario from a supercharger where it will easily take you 20-30 minutes to fill up for a couple days of use and it is the only station around.

As for the other scenarios described, they are using the superchargers out of necessity (they don't have an easy reasonable alternative), while your primary motivation is to save money. Obviously a person that does this and strives to inconvenience others as little as possible (for example moving the car when people need to use the station) is less unethical than one who does not, but in examining why people think do something like this is unethical at all, I think my point gets pretty close to it.

If Tesla ever marketed superchargers as a great way to save on daily charging costs (which if they intended for it to be used this way, they should have done so already, as it's a great competitive advantage to other EVs), I'm sure there would be no one questioning the ethics of it.

 

[Uncle Paul]

This discussion might become mute in the future, as most superchargers are designed to include future solar charging upgrades. When these roll out, the "running on sunshine" superchargers will provide free electricity to all those entitled. I believe Tesla will be analysising supercharger usage data and provide increased stalls where needed. From time to time people might need to wait a bit to get an empty stall, but I imagine it will be far less than many fear. Bet that in the future there will be an app to indicate where local empty stalls are available.

I see people waiting for a 1/2 hour around here to fuel up at local Costco's where the gas is cheaper. Nothing new here.

Current practice is for people to charge up at their homes for convenience, and keep superchargers open for use by long distance travelers. Those that wish to tank up at local Superchargers have the potential to make it difficult for everybody else if they hog the spots.

I see the same thing at charity feedings for the poor. Some that could afford to buy their own food will invariably get in line for a free meal, forcing those truly hungry poor to wait much longer to get their nourishment.

Someone will always try to game the system for their own benefit, and care little for others.

 

[JimmyAZ]

I'm starting to see a strange negative connotation on the Model 3 by the OP. You "don't" think they should access to Superchargers simply because they're a less expensive car? You don't think that will be rolled into the production cost? You remember how the SpC pricing is also an upgrade for the S in some cases, right? I don't like how you seem to place the S above the 3 in terms of rights to access.

I think all Teslas that have Supercharger option paid for should have access to all stations. I think you and I agree there. I, however, hope that all Teslas have the option to purchase access at time of purchase or have it rolled into the cost. If every Tesla DID have access to the charger network, then yes you might have a problem getting all the juice you need from there. In that case perhaps you should buckle down an install a charging plug at your home like the majority of us are doing. That would alleviate a lot of the stress and angst of people using those stations. I don't think it's going to be as expensive to install as you say.

 

[mknox]

I think all Teslas that have Supercharger option paid for should have access to all stations.

With Tesla having opened their patents, other EV makers could adopt Supercharging standards and capability. Those auto makers or the owners could pay Tesla some sort Supercharger enablement fee (like 60 kWh Model S owners did) and now you've got a whole bunch more competing for these resources.

 

[kuttakamina]

I wish,

Tesla would offer an option, especially for Model 3,
- Free supercharging included for life for a fee, or
- Supercharging built on a per use or monthly fee, tied to your mytesla account and your car automatically communicates supercharger usage to Tesla and bills your credit card.

And,

- Tesla should partner up with a gas company like Shell etc., to offer a supercharging gas station, at existing gas stations and increase the supercharger network footprint like crazy. This would be good for Tesla owners as we get a bigger SC network, and good for Shell that it gives them clean air creds.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Seems like this thread is getting too polarizing. This will be my final comment on this subject unless someone who oppose this has something really good to convince me otherwise. To date I am still firm on my stance. Here are my thoughts on this:

There are 2 camps based on the feedbacks I've gotten from this thread. There are some diehards who are not willing to budge while I have to congratulate and praised those who have jumped ship to my side. You guys really show the internet can be a place of reasonable, calm, and logical discussion. Let's leave the emotion and politics out of this. LOL This is the only direction I have seen people move BTW. I also praise others who have relax their stance too who are not yet convinced.

Here are the camps I see:

A) People who discourage this because they believe it will hurt road trippers and other people who have no means of charging at home.

B) People who supports this because tesla says explicitly anyone with a model S with supercharging enabled can use it.

I think I will take the objective position on this. I have enough data to make my own conclusion. In fact, my decisions was concluded quite a bit early in the thread because all the later comments are pretty much rehashing of the same point of view. Nothing new...

Here is what I plan to do once I get the car. I hope others who plan to follow suit will do something similar:

1) Charge for 15-30 minutes every other day on my way to work ideally. Occasionally on my way home.

2) Balance charge at home on the 120V once a month to maintain the battery, supercharging first, of course, to higher SOC beforehand.

3) If the supercharging stations are full, I will skip the charging for the day. If not, I will charge there for 15-30 minutes.

4) During charging, if ALL the stalls are occupied and someone shows up, then I'll unplug and leave regardless of how long I've been there.

5) If the stations gets more congested in the future, I'll look into installing NEMA 14-50 and maybe solar once I build my funds up again.

6) If I ever move or work at a different place where it doesn't favor me to supercharge every other day for 15-30 minutes anymore, then I'll install the NEMA 14-50 and look into solar.

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[Max*]

I wish,

Tesla would offer an option, especially for Model 3,
- Free supercharging included for life for a fee, or
- Supercharging built on a per use or monthly fee, tied to your mytesla account and your car automatically communicates supercharger usage to Tesla and bills your credit card.

And,

- Tesla should partner up with a gas company like Shell etc., to offer a supercharging gas station, at existing gas stations and increase the supercharger network footprint like crazy. This would be good for Tesla owners as we get a bigger SC network, and good for Shell that it gives them clean air creds.

I'm not convinced Tesla will go that route. I think it depends on how they'll be advertising the Model 3.
Is it a city car? Then your approach may work
Is it a travel anywhere car like the Model S? Then they can't say "you can travel anywhere, but you have to pay us big bucks" because it would lead people away towards other EVs (assuming by that point there will be a bigger EV charging infrastructure)

- - - Updated - - -

Seems like this thread is getting too polarizing. This will be my final comment on this subject unless someone who oppose this has something really good to convince me otherwise. To date I am still firm on my stance. Here are my thoughts on this:

There are 2 camps based on the feedbacks I've gotten from this thread. There are some diehards who are not willing to budge while I have to congratulate and praised those who have jumped ship to my side. You guys really show the internet can be a place of reasonable, calm, and logical discussion. Let's leave the emotion and politics out of this. LOL This is the only direction I have seen people move BTW. I also praise others who have relax their stance too who are not yet convinced.

Here are the camps I see:

A) People who discourage this because they believe it will hurt road trippers and other people who have no means of charging at home.

B) People who supports this because tesla says explicitly anyone with a model S with supercharging enabled can use it.

I think I will take the objective position on this. I have enough data to make my own conclusion. In fact, my decisions was concluded quite a bit early in the thread because all the later comments are pretty much rehashing of the same point of view. Nothing new...

Here is what I plan to do once I get the car. I hope others who plan to follow suit will do something similar:

1) Charge for 15-30 minutes every other day on my way to work ideally. Occasionally on my way home.

2) Balance charge at home on the 120V once a month to maintain the battery, supercharging first, of course, to higher SOC beforehand.

3) If the supercharging stations are full, I will skip the charging for the day. If not, I will charge there for 15-30 minutes.

4) During charging, if ALL the stalls are occupied and someone shows up, then I'll unplug and leave regardless of how long I've been there.

5) If the stations gets more congested in the future, I'll look into installing NEMA 14-50 and maybe solar once I build my funds up again.

6) If I ever move or work at a different place where it doesn't favor me to supercharge every other day for 15-30 minutes anymore, then I'll install the NEMA 14-50 and look into solar.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I fall into camp A, but if you're actually going to be doing #4, then more power to you (<--- see what I did there?)

 

[JimmyAZ]

Seems like this thread is getting too polarizing. This will be my final comment on this subject unless someone who oppose this has something really good to convince me otherwise. To date I am still firm on my stance. Here are my thoughts on this:

There are 2 camps based on the feedbacks I've gotten from this thread. There are some diehards who are not willing to budge while I have to congratulate and praised those who have jumped ship to my side. You guys really show the internet can be a place of reasonable, calm, and logical discussion. Let's leave the emotion and politics out of this. LOL This is the only direction I have seen people move BTW. I also praise others who have relax their stance too who are not yet convinced.

Here are the camps I see:

A) People who discourage this because they believe it will hurt road trippers and other people who have no means of charging at home.

B) People who supports this because tesla says explicitly anyone with a model S with supercharging enabled can use it.

I think I will take the objective position on this. I have enough data to make my own conclusion. In fact, my decisions was concluded quite a bit early in the thread because all the later comments are pretty much rehashing of the same point of view. Nothing new...

Here is what I plan to do once I get the car. I hope others who plan to follow suit will do something similar:

1) Charge for 15-30 minutes every other day on my way to work ideally. Occasionally on my way home.

2) Balance charge at home on the 120V once a month to maintain the battery, supercharging first, of course, to higher SOC beforehand.

3) If the supercharging stations are full, I will skip the charging for the day. If not, I will charge there for 15-30 minutes.

4) During charging, if ALL the stalls are occupied and someone shows up, then I'll unplug and leave regardless of how long I've been there.

5) If the stations gets more congested in the future, I'll look into installing NEMA 14-50 and maybe solar once I build my funds up again.

6) If I ever move or work at a different place where it doesn't favor me to supercharge every other day for 15-30 minutes anymore, then I'll install the NEMA 14-50 and look into solar.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I like how you've laid this out! And I've given you reputation for creating this thread and a healthy discussion. It's definitely polarizing, but I see that you and I are fairly much on the same page. I appreciate that you will use your 120v at home as needed and will surrender your SpC spot if needed by a new customer. I think if we all behaved like this the stations would fair very well.