Taycan Takedown

[voip-ninja]

Not sure when both of them are on the market. Between a $150,000 Taycan and $200,000 Roadster which one you think you would buy? 600 mile range 1.9 second 0-60 vs. even a 300 mile range 3 second 0-60 one?



Porsche is making race cars, or in many instances perceived race cars, and Tesla is making tech cars. That said Tesla is much more a race car than Porsche is a tech car.

Tesla have never made a product delivery date in the companies 10 year existence. Realize it's already more or less confirmed as slipping from 2020 to 2021.

The Porsche for sure will be shipping next year as they have unveiled the final production model and have the resources necessary to produce it more or less immediately.

It's also kind of funny that the same people who are ripping into Porsche for how much more it costs than a P100D or P3D view the huge price difference between the Taycan and Roadster 2.0 as trivial.

 

[Eno Deb]

Wow some authors will reach deep to take any cuts at Tesla that they can!!

" We can only speculate that the large panel gaps seen on some finished production Model 3s are intended to let the air flow more efficiently…"

If I'm honest, when I skimmed through the article and read this in a section about a Mercedes:

"From an enclosed underbody to avoid disrupting the airflow, to ensuring the headlights seal flush with the bodywork, the efforts of the engineers has been huge."

... I had to think of the not-quite-flush headlights on my Model 3 and was wondering how much aero Tesla left on the table due to their "suboptimal" assembly quality.

 

[CarlK]

Tesla have never made a product delivery date in the companies 10 year existence. Realize it's already more or less confirmed as slipping from 2020 to 2021.

The Porsche for sure will be shipping next year as they have unveiled the final production model and have the resources necessary to produce it more or less immediatel

The Model 3 is unveiled a year after Mission E. How many Tesla has delivered already? 200K? 300K? more?

It's also kind of funny that the same people who are ripping into Porsche for how much more it costs than a P100D or P3D view the huge price difference between the Taycan and Roadster 2.0 as trivial .

You're so cute. Taycan is at best a 911 class car. Roadster 2 is a Lambo if not McLaren class car. There is simply no comparison.

 

[seattlite2004]

The Model 3 is unveiled a year after Mission E. How many Tesla has delivered already? 200K? 300K? more?



You're so cute. Taycan is at best a 911 class car. Roadster 2 is a Lambo if not McLaren class car. There is simply no comparison.

That sh1t is funny..... hhhh.

 

[richyrich]

Taycan's range won't be as much as Tesla's I'm pretty sure about that and the reason is not that it can't be matched, but the focus is elsewhere. Most likely it will also come with limited battery capacity for example.

You're drinking the kool-aid. If Porsche COULD match or better the Tesla range, they WOULD. The fact is they can't right now so they try to redirect buyers with "oh well, range isn't important anyway, look at these other impressive facts and stats...". I'm sure they'll get there eventually but right now it's funny to see - the Canadian e-Tron website still has no mention of range on the main model page which is hilarious given it's one of the primary concerns for an EV buyer. If Porsche could do better than Tesla in range they'd be shouting it from the rooftops; because they can't it's apparently a non-issue...

 

[acoste]

You're drinking the kool-aid. If Porsche COULD match or better the Tesla range, they WOULD. The fact is they can't right now so they try to redirect buyers with "oh well, range isn't important anyway, look at these other impressive facts and stats...". I'm sure they'll get there eventually but right now it's funny to see - the Canadian e-Tron website still has no mention of range on the main model page which is hilarious given it's one of the primary concerns for an EV buyer. If Porsche could do better than Tesla in range they'd be shouting it from the rooftops; because they can't it's apparently a non-issue...

Why did you remove the Mercedes EQC comment? It has very similar consumption than the Model X.

Also which Tesla range are you talking about? A new car's range or one that has reduced range due to some software updates?

Let me remind you that the guy who was responsible for the 918 Spyder electric power train designed the Roadster 2 drive train. So maybe Porsche is not that inexperienced when it comes to electric ..

Also there are many design parameters specified for a given product. Oftentimes when one parameter increases, the other one decreases as they aren't independent and limited by physics and economics. So yes. I'm pretty sure Porsche can reach the range of Teslas if they had the same design goals.

 

[afadeev]

You're drinking the kool-aid. If Porsche COULD match or better the Tesla range, they WOULD. The fact is they can't right now so they try to redirect buyers with "oh well, range isn't important anyway, look at these other impressive facts and stats...".

There is nothing magical about range - you just stuff more battery cells into the floor, and write a bigger check to Panasonic/LG/Samsung.

The downsides are not just extra cost, but extra weight.
A LOT of extra weight.

Weight kills performance.
Porsche knows this. Tesla, not so much.

If I could have bought TM3-Performance with a smaller battery, I would have.
Lower weight would have made for a more nimble, and more fun car!

If Porsche could do better than Tesla in range they'd be shouting it from the rooftops; because they can't it's apparently a non-issue...

Not if performance was their design priority!

 

[wenkan]

There is nothing magical about range - you just stuff more battery cells into the floor, and write a bigger check to Panasonic/LG/Samsung.

The downsides are not just extra cost, but extra weight.
A LOT of extra weight.

Weight kills performance.
Porsche knows this. Tesla, not so much.

If I could have bought TM3-Performance with a smaller battery, I would have.
Lower weight would have made for a more nimble, and more fun car!




Not if performance was their design priority!

That's partially true, but stuffing battery does not increase range linearly. You need to carry extra weight which hurts your efficiency. As you said performance lovers should definitely prefer 75kwh battern over 95kwh when possible. So guess why Porsche chose 95kwh battery?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Porsche knows this. Tesla, not so much.
If I could have bought TM3-Performance with a smaller battery, I would have.
Lower weight would have made for a more nimble, and more fun car!

Not sure what you are implying here...

To the best of our knowledge (see links above):

1) Taycan will be somewhat heavier than Model 3 (by a few hundred pounds).

2) Taycan will have a larger battery than Model 3.

However, it looks likely that Porsche will be lighter on a lb/kWh basis. Looks likely that it will be lighter on a lb/HP (or lb/kW) basis too of course.

As mentioned elsewhere, with the higher voltage there will be some weight and efficiency savings (in theory) due to lower loss and potentially less thickness required for the HV cabling (all else being equal).

We’ll hopefully all know in a week or so.

I expect the EPA range to be similar to the P3D+ EPA range (estimated), at least in some trim level. Sounds like the high performance variants will have larger batteries (not surprisingly).

But I really am just guessing. We will see!

Wonder if the Turbo S (probably won’t be announced) will get 105kWh? I’d expect decent range out of that especially if you put efficient tires on it (not that you would).

 

[Glamisduner]

The Tycan doing well may also boost Tesla sales IMO. I hope it's good!

 

[ulrichw]

[...]
If I could have bought TM3-Performance with a smaller battery, I would have.
Lower weight would have made for a more nimble, and more fun car!
[...]

You're right in a way, but I think you're missing an important point: Maximum motive power in electric cars is generally limited by the maximum discharge current the battery can safely and reliably handle. This capacity increases approximately linearly with battery capacity (all else being equal).

This is where the conundrum of some of Tesla's heaviest cars also being their fastest cars comes from.

Your hypothetical TM3-performance with a smaller battery unfortunately would have had to detune its power to get to the same reliability as it's larger-battery variants.

IMO getting better performance requires a smaller overall package - i.e., another step in the scale like the step from the Model S to the Model 3. Simply using a smaller battery in the same size chassis won't do it.

 

[ulrichw]

Most sports cars have higher CD for extra cooling and for creating downforce at high speeds. I'm talking about the basic BMW 5 series. cd= 0.22. Google is your friend.

The new BMW 5 Series Sedan.

"The drag coefficient of the new, 4,935 millimetre-long BMW 5 Series Sedan (Cd = 0.22 at its most efficient) sets the benchmark in its class."

This is an impressive number, but note that they're "cheating" to a degree. The "at its most efficient" gives it away: One of the inherent disadvantages of ICEs is that they generate in the vicinity of 75% waste heat. That heat needs to be moved away from the engine compartment somehow. Usually this means moving a good amount of air through the grille and radiator. This actually introduces quite a significant amount of drag (sometimes called "cooling drag").

BMW's most efficient Cd is accomplished by closing off its grille when cooling is not needed. This means that the 0.22 Cd is only achievable in those circumstances when minimal cooling is needed. I'm curious at what speeds/ambient temperatures this configuration is actually sustainable.

 

[rachelhikes]

BMW's most efficient Cd is accomplished by closing off its grille when cooling is not needed. This means that the 0.22 Cd is only achievable in those circumstances when minimal cooling is needed. I'm curious at what speeds this configuration is actually sustainable.

Indefinitely - when parked.

 

[acoste]

This is an impressive number, but note that they're "cheating" to a degree. The "at its most efficient" gives it away: One of the inherent disadvantages of ICEs is that they generate in the vicinity of 75% waste heat. That heat needs to be moved away from the engine compartment somehow. Usually this means moving a good amount of air through the grille and radiator. This actually introduces quite a significant amount of drag (sometimes called "cooling drag").

BMW's most efficient Cd is accomplished by closing off its grille when cooling is not needed. This means that the 0.22 Cd is only achievable in those circumstances when minimal cooling is needed. I'm curious at what speeds/ambient temperatures this configuration is actually sustainable.

I'm aware of the tech behind it.

And my response was meant for a fanboy who thinks 0.23 cd is something unheard of. Mercedes reached it on a mass production ICE car in 2012 already. If BMW with closed grills reaches 0.22 on an ICE then most likely it can deliver same or better results on an EV. And Porsche isn't behind either.

 

[juanmedina]

Tesla have never made a product delivery date in the companies 10 year existence. Realize it's already more or less confirmed as slipping from 2020 to 2021.

The Porsche for sure will be shipping next year as they have unveiled the final production model and have the resources necessary to produce it more or less immediately.

It's also kind of funny that the same people who are ripping into Porsche for how much more it costs than a P100D or P3D view the huge price difference between the Taycan and Roadster 2.0 as trivial.

Because the Roadster is world's apart for the same cost Delta to the Tesla Model S Performance.

 

[CarlK]

Because the Roadster is world's apart for the same cost Delta to the Tesla Model S Performance.

Right. People who want to compare Taycan, or for that matter any Porsche, to the Roadster don't know what they are talking about. Jay Leno who probably had seen any car imaginable shouted in excitement after riding on the Roadster "I'll buy it, I take it". There is zero chance he'd have the same reaction if it's a Taycan. He'd be looked at as an idiot if he does anyway.

 

[CarlK]

You're right in a way, but I think you're missing an important point: Maximum motive power in electric cars is generally limited by the maximum discharge current the battery can safely and reliably handle. This capacity increases approximately linearly with battery capacity (all else being equal).

This is where the conundrum of some of Tesla's heaviest cars also being their fastest cars comes from.

Your hypothetical TM3-performance with a smaller battery unfortunately would have had to detune its power to get to the same reliability as it's larger-battery variants.

IMO getting better performance requires a smaller overall package - i.e., another step in the scale like the step from the Model S to the Model 3. Simply using a smaller battery in the same size chassis won't do it.

There is another factor which is the motor efficiency. If you have watched the Sandy Munro Model 3 tear down he noticed the very special PM motor design and speculated that's part of reason for its power and range. Later on when Tesla replace one of the S/X motor with a similar one range was increased ~15% and to 375 miles for the S.

 

[seattlite2004]

People who want to compare Taycan, or for that matter any Porsche, to the Roadster don't what they are talking about. Jay Leno who probably had seen any car imaginable shouted in excitement after riding on the Roadster "I'll buy it, I take it". There is zero chance he'd have the same reaction if it's a Taycan. He'd be looked at as an idiot if he does anyway.

Looks like an amusement park ride reaction...guess that's good for some folks.

But, he does like the Redeye:

Wonder what he's gonna say about the C8 tomorrow:

 

[acoste]

There is another factor which is the motor efficiency. If you have watched the Sandy Munro Model 3 tear down he noticed the very special PM motor design and speculated that's part of reason for its power and range. Later on when Tesla replace one of the S/X motor with a similar one range was increased ~15% and to 375 miles for the S.

Munro was wrong about the motor type, he thought it's a Halbach motor. And the motor efficiency didn't jump that much. An induction motor reaches 94% efficiency and the state of art pm motors are near 97%.

Quoting Tesla:
"latest generation of drive unit technology, which combines an optimized permanent magnet synchronous reluctance motor, silicon carbide power electronics, and improved lubrication, cooling, bearings, and gear designs to achieve greater than 93% efficiency. Pairing a permanent magnet motor in the front with an induction motor in the rear enables unparalleled range and performance at all times. The net effect is a more than 10% improvement in range,"

Silicon carbide power electronics help a lot. Many newer EVs are using it.

Fun fact: Audi decided to use asynch induction motor in the E-tron because the permanent magnet motor contains many rare-earth metals and they speculated that the price of these metals may jump later in the future when more EVs are on the road. Another trade-off regarding the range. Will see if they were right.
Rare Earths: Audi opting for induction motor technology in its e-tron EV — Roskill

 

[donkemaen]

Not sure what you are implying here...

To the best of our knowledge (see links above):

1) Taycan will be somewhat heavier than Model 3 (by a few hundred pounds).

2) Taycan will have a larger battery than Model 3.

However, it looks likely that Porsche will be lighter on a lb/kWh basis. Looks likely that it will be lighter on a lb/HP (or lb/kW) basis too of course.

As mentioned elsewhere, with the higher voltage there will be some weight and efficiency savings (in theory) due to lower loss and potentially less thickness required for the HV cabling (all else being equal).

We’ll hopefully all know in a week or so.

I expect the EPA range to be similar to the P3D+ EPA range (estimated), at least in some trim level. Sounds like the high performance variants will have larger batteries (not surprisingly).

But I really am just guessing. We will see!

Wonder if the Turbo S (probably won’t be announced) will get 105kWh? I’d expect decent range out of that especially if you put efficient tires on it (not that you would).

Top Gear just posted their first review. Porsche Taycan review: our first go in Tesla's big rival
Curb weight over 2.2 tonnes! Thats ~800 lbs more than P3D.