Tesla 3 Performance v. Porsche 911 4S

[tommie]

for a few years I owned (never got it driveable) one of the first 200 Z cars. A 1969 240Z. Kids came and put the end to my dream of restoring it. Sold it to a deep pocket car collector. Had a 1971 240Z as a daily driver. Loved the feel of the car. About as far removed from a Tesla as you could get. Even had a manual choke. AM radio.

I had the 3500th 240Z produced. It was on the lot in Prosser, WA, and they didn't know what they had. In the Bay Area, in 1970, they started at 7500, used. I got it for list price. The radio was a blast--its search function had the station pointer travel down a wire until it hit a station.

 

[wgood33]

Amazed you got 49,000 miles out of a set of MPS4S!!

Michelin only warrants them to 30k. I also have them in a staggered setup on my 911 GTS. Michelin only warrants them to 15k on staggered setups, and mine are usually done after 12-15k. They start getting noisy around 8-10k.

Amazing tire though. If I get anywhere near 30k out of them on my M3P I'll be thrilled.

I expected 25 to 30k as I am a freeway runner in the M3P. I rotated every 5 to 10k and at 49k had cords showing in the inside edges of both fronts indicating a toe-in setup from the factory. I ordered the same Tesla OEM tires last week, hoping for good luck again here on the mileage.

 

[Jverhelst]

... I never got the sports exhaust which, as someone who despises Harley riders assaulting my ears, I thought was totally obnoxious. And not once did I try launch control. I couldn't imagine sitting at the traffic light gunning my engine to 4,000 RPM with the other foot on the brake. And, honestly, everything about the car was probably a bit obnoxious for anyone looking at mine, especially when I passed them in the right lane at 90. Even driving at 30 mph in our no-sidewalk neighborhood, people walking their dogs would wag their finger at me because although I was not driving fast my car always sounded fast.



So what about the plusses compared with a 911?

Performance! OMG. No contest. At least below 110 mph (see above!)
And quiet, no noise, no drama, instantly available acceleration

And all for under $60K delivered.

If I'd waited another week to write this I don't think I'd have even bothered. It's already hard to look back. Driving a Tesla changes how you think about driving. It is so obviously the future, as of course is autonomy and eventually cars as a service.

One final thought: when I went to return my 911, the dealer had a shiny new black Taycan Turbo recharging at the entrance. Very lightly optioned it was around $170,000 before tax. Even folding mirrors ($330) would be extra as would the premium Bermester audio ($5,810). A well optioned standard Turbo would be closer to $180K. But it did have one option listed:

• Porsche Electric Sport Sound

And that to me said it all! Vroom-vroom.

How things have changed!

A few remarks.. I wonder why you ever drove a 911 in the first place.. you never use launch control, you never specced a sports exhaust.. never did more than 100mph.

you also complain about difference in price.. YES you compare a 140.000 dollar car with a 60.000 dollar car

then you compare a 170.000 dollar Taycan to a 60.000 dollar M3P.. have you even driven a Taycan ?

I’m not saying the M3 is a bad car but you can’t even compare it to a 992 4S..

you say performance is better in the M3 ? No quite.. but ofcourse.. the 911 starts where the M3 stops.. 0-200kph is 11 seconds in the 992 and 16 seconds in the M3P.. that’s like apples and oranges.

I’m happy you are happy with the M3P but you can’t really compare these cars.. it’s like saying a Ford Camry is better than a formula 1 car because the ford has a trunk and 4 seats.


Full disclosure : I come from owning Macan, then a panamera hybrid to owning a model S and now waiting on the delivery of a 992 ( and keeping the model S for now) I don’t get driving pleasure from an EV

 

[BigNick]

The only thing that concerned me a bit was that Tesla Mobile came to install the garage door opener and had to disassemble half the car to do it. What a bloody waste of time and added risk for probably $20 worth of electronics that they could just as easily preinstall and initialize over the air if they really want to charge extra for it. It had to have been at least a $100 truck role and I'm guessing at least 50% of their customers order (or should). And the fellow set it up in the garage because it was raining outside and so it didn't even work automatically until I reset it outside, location wise.

That is full-on pants-on-head (what your ignition timing was when not "advanced".)
Especially considering it's a supercheap option to include from the factory, like in every new S or X.

 

[pnoble]

Hello! Delightfully surprised to find you here and see your review featured on the main page. Hope you find some time to rip around on the deserted roads during this time. Track Mode V2 has a lap timer. Home -> Pharmacy so you have plausible deniability,

Hello, Brock! Tesla Motor Club was my first port of call! I just wanted to share my initial thoughts on the transition from P to T and figured this the best forum to do so.

 

[EmOne]

A few remarks.. I wonder why you ever drove a 911 in the first place.. you never use launch control, you never specced a sports exhaust.. never did more than 100mph.

you also complain about difference in price.. YES you compare a 140.000 dollar car with a 60.000 dollar car

then you compare a 170.000 dollar Taycan to a 60.000 dollar M3P.. have you even driven a Taycan ?

I’m not saying the M3 is a bad car but you can’t even compare it to a 992 4S..

you say performance is better in the M3 ? No quite.. but ofcourse.. the 911 starts where the M3 stops.. 0-200kph is 11 seconds in the 992 and 16 seconds in the M3P.. that’s like apples and oranges.

I’m happy you are happy with the M3P but you can’t really compare these cars.. it’s like saying a Ford Camry is better than a formula 1 car because the ford has a trunk and 4 seats.


Full disclosure : I come from owning Macan, then a panamera hybrid to owning a model S and now waiting on the delivery of a 992 ( and keeping the model S for now) I don’t get driving pleasure from an EV

Well, I have to admit you provided a lot of laughs with this one. I'm sorry you have to work so hard to feel good about buying the Porsche. The comparisons are like apples and oranges (tho no Ford Camry's (sic) vs formula 1) but I don't think in the way you intend. The fact is that once you have driven a 3 with an open mind, all of the ICE cars feel pretty dinosaur, tho possibly quite thrilling (Mclaren, Ferrari, and , yes, Porsche) but so is a horse ride if you get a really lively one! As far as "performance" goes, on the street you are gonna get mauled every time just because this thing has "throttle response" that makes that term obsolete. How many people do use the launch control on their Porsche? Dragstrip? Stoplight? I don't have a single friend (10?) that has a Porsche that has ever taken it to a drag strip. I haven't asked, but after one or two tries, I bet none of 'em still use launch control--I know that launching hard on the street is noisy and most people would feel like an ass doing it. The Model 3 will destroy your 4S even with launch control at any street legal (or even likely!) speeds (check out Nico Rosberg losing to one in 0-60 with a GT2RS!). It won't have the vroom vroom (tho you could probably figure out a way to add it for $100000!), but it will have a transmission that is just as engaging. As for track work, good video of a 3 passing a GT3 is out there, etc. etc.
In the end, you are right about one thing: you can't really compare them, but it because they are from different eras. Just in case you didn't read my previous post, I have owned and tracked RX-7 FD,e92 M3, 997.1 GT3; I still own and have tracked Series 1M, and I also own Macan S, and a GTI. The M3P+ makes them all feel like hobbies. So sorry about the clean, no nonsense interior and mediocre (by current standards, which is to say pretty good!) build quality (tho one of the best sound systems around!). It still blows my mind that they put in a wishbone front suspension--try finding that on a modern Porsche!

 

[Knightshade]

That is full-on pants-on-head (what your ignition timing was when not "advanced".)
Especially considering it's a supercheap option to include from the factory, like in every new S or X.

Word is the homelink folks require a license fee for every car that shipped from the factory with it installed.

A lot easier to eat that, even on cars that never use it, on a $75,000-100,000 car than a car that sells as cheap as $35,000.

Tesla has data from the fleet on what % of 3 owners actually use it- obviously that number was low enough it was cheaper to stop putting them in 100% cars at the factory and offer it as an add-on later.

 

[Jared]

" quiet, no noise, no drama, instantly available acceleration."

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I think the instant and powerful acceleration that is quiet cant be understated as a factor that puts the model 3 over other faster and on paper faster cars. Not having to go through a loud launch sequence to get fast acceleration numbers is what is actually fun and useful in real life situations. Being able to use that acceleration without being a problem or even noticed by others is a giant benefit that I had not considered before my model 3 performance purchase.

 

[BigNick]

Word is the homelink folks require a license fee for every car that shipped from the factory with it installed.

A lot easier to eat that, even on cars that never use it, on a $75,000-100,000 car than a car that sells as cheap as $35,000.

Tesla has data from the fleet on what % of 3 owners actually use it- obviously that number was low enough it was cheaper to stop putting them in 100% cars at the factory and offer it as an add-on later.

I don't see a lot of street-parked Teslas. S, X, or 3. But I guess of non-gargaged cars, the 3 would be a higher percentage in that case?
My other car is a Chevy Impala (2015) that included it from the factory, its price when new was comparable to a RWD 3. But less cost for GM in a V6/6A drivetrain than in the Li-Ion battery packs that Tesla uses.
Still, it should have been engineered as a simple drop-in rather than taking half the car apart.

 

[Knightshade]

I don't see a lot of street-parked Teslas. S, X, or 3. But I guess of non-gargaged cars, the 3 would be a higher percentage in that case?
My other car is a Chevy Impala (2015) that included it from the factory, its price when new was comparable to a RWD 3. But less cost for GM in a V6/6A drivetrain than in the Li-Ion battery packs that Tesla uses.
Still, it should have been engineered as a simple drop-in rather than taking half the car apart.

For the first nearly 2 years of production it came built into the car from the factory (and obviously the engineering design was finalized well before even that).... the change happened around end of May 2019, not long after the much cheaper SR models were released. Tesla was trying all kinds of weird stuff at the time to attempt to cut costs to keep margins healthy on the 3- this is one of the ones that stuck.

There's a number of things that look like weird engineering choices today but only because of things they didn't know then... (dashcam wasn't a thing then, nor were car games using a USB controller- so only having 2 front USB ports only seems short sighted in retrospect for example)


(I also think the "take half the car apart" bit is a touch exaggerated FWIW- they're only charging $300 for the thing including install time)

 

[ManoftheSpring]

Thanks for this! I'm a Porsche driver as well, so I really appreciate your perspective. Why did you settle on the 3? I can't really decide and am getting tired of waiting for the Roadster . . .

 

[ducktales]

A few remarks.. I wonder why you ever drove a 911 in the first place.. you never use launch control, you never specced a sports exhaust.. never did more than 100mph.

you also complain about difference in price.. YES you compare a 140.000 dollar car with a 60.000 dollar car

then you compare a 170.000 dollar Taycan to a 60.000 dollar M3P.. have you even driven a Taycan ?

I’m not saying the M3 is a bad car but you can’t even compare it to a 992 4S..

you say performance is better in the M3 ? No quite.. but ofcourse.. the 911 starts where the M3 stops.. 0-200kph is 11 seconds in the 992 and 16 seconds in the M3P.. that’s like apples and oranges.

I’m happy you are happy with the M3P but you can’t really compare these cars.. it’s like saying a Ford Camry is better than a formula 1 car because the ford has a trunk and 4 seats.


Full disclosure : I come from owning Macan, then a panamera hybrid to owning a model S and now waiting on the delivery of a 992 ( and keeping the model S for now) I don’t get driving pleasure from an EV

Have you driven the m3p? Have you driven a 992 on more than a test drive?

Your m3p 0-200 kph is wrong btw. Also what’s a ford camry?

 

[pnoble]

A few remarks.. I wonder why you ever drove a 911 in the first place.. you never use launch control, you never specced a sports exhaust.. never did more than 100mph.

you also complain about difference in price.. YES you compare a 140.000 dollar car with a 60.000 dollar car

then you compare a 170.000 dollar Taycan to a 60.000 dollar M3P.. have you even driven a Taycan ?

I’m not saying the M3 is a bad car but you can’t even compare it to a 992 4S..

you say performance is better in the M3 ? No quite.. but ofcourse.. the 911 starts where the M3 stops.. 0-200kph is 11 seconds in the 992 and 16 seconds in the M3P.. that’s like apples and oranges.

I’m happy you are happy with the M3P but you can’t really compare these cars.. it’s like saying a Ford Camry is better than a formula 1 car because the ford has a trunk and 4 seats.


Full disclosure : I come from owning Macan, then a panamera hybrid to owning a model S and now waiting on the delivery of a 992 ( and keeping the model S for now) I don’t get driving pleasure from an EV

I think I bought (actually leased) 911s for the same reasons as many. I found and find it an intoxicatingly beautiful car without being ostentatious and I thoroughly enjoyed driving one for sixteen years. I only ever had one car at a time and I drove my 911 every day. It was practical enough for me and I managed to fit an adult or two in the back in extreme emergencies. (It should come with a passenger extraction tool, as getting out seems more challenging even than getting in). My first two were stick shift which I very much enjoyed driving but with the 991's seven gears it seemed time to transition to the wonderful PDK.

As mentioned, I am an aggressive driver and used much of the 911's real world, highway level handling and performance to my advantage and no doubt it's incredibly agile handling saved me (and others) on more than one occasion! I never tracked them primarily because I leased all of them. That's my excuse, anyhow.

I never used launch control because I found the whole idea ridiculous, personally speaking. Sitting at a traffic light, revving an engine to 4,000 rpm? For what? Sports exhaust is similar for me: making more noise because one can? And without any performance benefit even. I detest Harleys because its all about them, not considering the discomfort to anyone in hearing distance. Many will disagree. I live in a quiet, sedate neighborhood and I had no interest in announcing my arrival any more than I already did.

I never did over 100mph or so. Because I didn't want the hassle or cost of speeding tickets, not to mention risking losing my license. It's that simple. And against all odds, and with the help of my Valentine, I haven't gotten a speeding ticket n at least ten years. There may be parts of the country where some roads are unmonitored but not in northern NJ or most anywhere I am likely to drive and one is always especially at risk if one is driving on unfamiliar roads.

I don't really complain about the price of a 911. I do note the disparity not so much of pricing as pricing structure: how Porsche charges extra for everything, and it has only gotten more absurd to my mind over the years; when the base price is around $110,000 and one still has to pay for options that are standard in a $25,000 car, I find it a bit insulting frankly. Luxury goods pricing is a fascinating subject. There is even a category called Veblen goods where demand actually increases as the price increases! The more it costs, the more it is desired.

You ask if I ever drove a Taycan? I didn't. I am uncomfortable demoing a car I do not intend to buy, even though Paul Miller Porsche would have been no doubt delighted to have me test it. I wasn't going to lease or buy an electric car that had a significantly shorter range (and fewer charging stations) than a Tesla, I wasn't going to pay close to $200,000 (or the lease equivalent) for a car, period, and especially one that would not significantly outperform an M3P on the highway. Again, I am not looking to track either. (Yes a Taycan 4S would have been a lot less - around $130K as I would spec it, but significantly lower performance than an M3P, again I'm talking highway, not track.)

But there was more, much more. I became fascinated and invested in what Tesla (and Musk) were doing: their entirely new, clean sheet approach to designing cars. Not to mention the reality that they are years ahead of their competition from what I understand, especially in battery technology (including cooling). And I am thrilled with the initial experience. Even how I can survive quite well without CarPlay!

Continuing to address your specific points: re performance I pointed out that real world performance up to the real world speed limit on public roads the M3P outperforms the 911 (991.2, practically speaking the 992 too, I think). If I want to leave a traffic light quickly, I have more practical acceleration. If I want to overtake someone on the highway under 100 mph, ditto. If I want to enter or exit a highway fast on a tight ramp, a 911 would be a tad better, but honestly I've never pushed either to the limit.

You quote 0-200 km/h acceleration figures. I'm sure you are right for the 992 and having gearing will always win out at high speed, but even the old figures for the M3P (0-200 km/h) was 14.1 sec, and that was before the more recent performance increase. Again, I tend to stay below 100 mph myself.
(Tesla Model 3 Performance Accelerates From 0-163 MPH: Video)

Finally, your suggestion that comparing an M3P with a 911 is like comparing a 'Ford Camry' (I think its a Toyota) with a Formula 1 car. Let me suggest a real world analogy. Last summer I bought a Rolex. Just a stainless DateJust. It was a bit of an emotional decision with a bit of a backstory concerning AP, but suffice it so say: the watch was beautiful and the Chinese-American sales lady rather persuasive! I got immersed in the watch including how Rolex is the only company that is totally vertically integrated: it makes everything including refining the steel and creating its own lubricants. How they had just replaced the movement after 18 years; that it was now accurate within two seconds a day which I confirmed. Actually it was initially accurate within a 2-3 seconds a week. A mechanical watch! This beautiful, sensual, heavy watch that has hardly changed in design in 50 years. And for a luxury watch both practical and fairly priced. And I though to myself: this is the Porsche of watches!

Around Christmas we went to Buenos Aires and just a week before an English chap was shot dead in front of his hotel. International news. How did they target him? By his watch! Coming out of international arrivals. They followed him and his family into BA. He fought off the thieves and they shot him. So I was going to wear my modest Rolex but the headlines screamed: don't wear any expensive jewelry or watches! So literally the day of the night flight I headed over to the Apple store and bought a silver aluminum Apple Watch 5 with a black rubber strap. $499 with cellular. It's amazing. When we got back from BA I took out my Rolex and went through the ritual of winding it and setting it up with as much precision as possible using my Apple Watch to do so. I put it on. It looked beautiful. It displayed the time though not as clearly as my AW, and it felt really, really heavy after wearing an AW for a week. A few minutes later I put back on my AW and haven't taken it off since. Every few weeks I go through the ritual of putting on the Rolex and immediately taking it off!

Apple reimagined the watch just as Tesla reimagined the car. For sure, Tesla still primarily gets you from A to B whereas the Apple Watch really does so very much more than any mechanical watch but this comparison really resonates with me as flawed as it may be and apologies to anyone that thinks I went on too long and have too much time on my hands!

One more observation: more and more people, say those sitting in business class on international flights, who could no doubt afford and probably already own multiple luxury watches, many who no doubt wore them as status signifiers (I plead guilty to that charge, too) are now wearing Apple watches. Women as much as men.

 

[Genedr]

Love this thread....in 2015 I shopped for new car after my Porsche Cayman engine froze, about 4000 miles short of warranty expiration. After weeks of haggling with Porsche (no, I didn't race it; no, I didn't tinker with the engine, etc which would have voided the warranty) they replaced the engine ($16,000 warranty repair). Seems about 5% of those cars piston lifters froze, but Porshce wouldnt admit it.
Anyway, I was off to test drive Tesla, BMW and Mercedes models as replacement. I never got past the Tesla S test drive; bought a S85D on the spot in the gallery after the test drive.
Since then, have replaced our other car with a Model 3 (2018) and have been 100% delighted with both since.

 

[pnoble]

Thanks for this! I'm a Porsche driver as well, so I really appreciate your perspective. Why did you settle on the 3? I can't really decide and am getting tired of waiting for the Roadster . . .

My suggestion: try an M3P. I bought mine. Depreciation is so low that if I decided to trade it in after a short while I would still be way ahead compared with my prior lease payments. But there's no going back! Re the Roadster, I'm frankly in the same boat, but there's no reason to wait!

PS: Im so pleased to see that this post was well received. I searched high and low for some subjective insight into the 911 > M3P transition to help guide me before taking the plunge and I could never find.

 

[pnoble]

Is it wrong on my part, that I read this entire OP thread, in my mind, with a British accent?!!? Am I wrong???

Loved this post! Love the fact that I own a Tesla Model 3 Performance even more now! Thanks for your perspective between these two majestic cars and the obvious nod that I, also, made the right decision!

Thank you, TX_M3P+. British? Who me? How could you tell? Born and bred in London. Came to New York in 1976.

 

[TX_M3P+]

Thank you, TX_M3P+. British? Who me? How could you tell? Born and bred in London. Came to New York in 1976.

Ha! Go figure, I was right! How funny!! Don't ask me why, but as I was reading the post the voice in my head was British! Looks like you've been in the US for a long time though, do you still have an accent?

 

[jbcarioca]

Frankly I cannot count all the vehicles I've owned. Brands: 27 cars and 9 aircraft. Dozens of both. There were a few repeats, some, like Porsche and Maserati were quite distinctly different model to model, Some were hard-core sports cars that made no compromise (e.g. Honda S600 and Morgan +8) most tried to seem usable although some (NSU RO80 and Mazda R100, where choices only made by a certified lunatic-Me!). Aircraft were like that too (Lear 25 was horrible for passengers but spectacular to pilots [Ground-41,000 feet in six minutes 36 seconds] and unsafe to novices). Cars were like that too, 1970's Ferrari, Maserati and US muscle cars were lethal to careless drivers.

I mention both of these vehicle types because I was for decades enamoured of seriously flawed machines that I could claim to have mastered. Nothing beats the ego boost, for example, of teaching somebody to achieve a LRJET type rating.

Then in 2013 I drove a Tesla Model S. My world was blown. At the time I owned a Porsche and an Audi that I thought well of for different reasons. That Model S totally changed my outlook. A year later I ended out with a P85D that I promptly made into a P85D the moment I could. It was huge but I loved it. It was huge and I hate large cars. But, that car was my joy and I doted on it. I resolved to never own another non-electric car

I ordered a Model P3D+ the instant I could and took delivery as soon as I could. Not so huge but quite delightful in every way. I like it better. But I needed another car for Brazil to replace my last ICE, and aging BMW. I don't like it but I want electric. Thus I tried the Jaguar I-Pace when it arrived. It have all the Jaguarness that sybaritic folks love but no OTA updates, no nice nav system that finds every charging option. I also tried the Audi e-Tron and nearly gagged with huge and sluggish. So, waiting for Tesla...

I am certain I'll love the Roadster, mostly because it is smaller and will have few sacrifices. In the meantime I'm adoring the P3D+.

FWIW, I've driven the X quite extensively, mostly in Southern Europe and have been astonished about how easy it is to navigate in very very tight places. So, my spouse and I speculate we'll end out with a Roadster and a PYD.

Anyway, we no longer think about airplanes and consider only Tesla. Why no airplanes? If the trip is within the same continent we just drive Tesla! If not, we often went commercial anyway, and flying is not as much fun as a Tesla is. Besides, the Tesla is infinitely cheaper.

Also the world no longer can tolerate such an absurd lifestyle. I loved it, but such a lifestyle is an affront to everything that I now believe. I read my own post and am ashamed of what I once did.

At least now, despite the gross excess of dual residences, both are solar powered, and we don't even use air conditioning in Rio.

From time to time I recall fondly a 964 Convertible I once had, even way back then the options on mine were more than half the total cost. It was great on snow (with Nokkians of course). Until the S nothing came close in snow, not even Range Rovers (too tall and cumbersome). So, even there Tesla won our minds and hearts.

Thrice in my life I have suspended judgement and bought shares based on my belief in a product. Those three were Honda (1967), Apple (2012) and Tesla (2014). I have tried to be disciplined as an investor, but these three sometimes think that product wins, so long as they do not run out of cash.

 

[vnovak72]

Very interesting, thanks! Soon I'll share my impressions on my 10 days old Model 3 Performance and my 2016 BMW M3 Performance Package.

 

[pnoble]

Ha! Go figure, I was right! How funny!! Don't ask me why, but as I was reading the post the voice in my head was British! Looks like you've been in the US for a long time though, do you still have an accent?

You are very observant. Re accent, I'm told I still have quite a strong English accent but when I'm across the pond I think my accent is probably considered 'mid-Atlantic': the accent some English radio DJs used in the 60's when it was much cooler to sound American! (Mind you, the most famous of them all, Emperor Rosco, who is played by Philip Seymour Hoffman in Pirate Radio, was American!)