Tesla Alternative?

[ACarneiro]

The worrying thing is BMW or other legacy German car makers will not go under as there will be some state support or manipulation of the market to keep them chugging along

Haven't got a problem with that.
More worrying would be Tesla becoming a monopoly in EVs. The attitude I've been seeing from them suggests very little good would come of that.
Agree wholeheartedly, though, that legacy makers need to really adapt. Diess seemed to grok this with VW and they have somewhat regained my respect after the fustercluck that was the Diesel emissions scandal.

 

[HaggisMan]

Harry was quite positive about the iX.

I’ve enjoyed my time in ours so far. I think it’s more of a competitor for the Model X. You can’t get a new Model X in RHD in the UK so that choice is wasn’t available for us. I haven’t sat in an X but I suspect the fit and finish differences would be noticeable compared to an iX.

As noted above, I think the other manufacturers need to come to the party properly. BMW succeeded in some ways with the iX as it is on a bespoke EV platform. The i5 is not and pays a price as a result. That being said bmw “neue klasse” next gen vehicles are only round the corner so maybe we’ll see more from them soon. I think they are doing better than Merc and Audi at the moment on the EV front.

 

[Zilla91]

BMW succeeded in some ways with the iX as it is on a bespoke EV platform.

But for the fact the iX isn’t built on a bespoke EV platform, it’s a modified version of the platform used by cars like the current gen X5.

BMW do have a bit of a weight problem with their EVs and that seems to be a stick they get beaten with on their M performance EVs (that and the fact they’re seen as being too fast).

Reviews tend to be much more positive for the normal variants that are just trying to be cars and not fire breathing M cars, or at least that’s the impression I get from watching i4 reviews.

 

[HaggisMan]

Its platform is similar but different to the CLAR platform shared by other vehicles. How similar? I don’t know but they will have no doubt borrowed bits. It’s certainly not a batteries in the boot job anyway.

There’s probably an element of not out shining their current crop of m cars. Perhaps the future iM3 might be something good but it is years away. Tesla aren’t burdened by that.

 

[WannabeOwner]

More worrying would be Tesla becoming a monopoly in EVs. The attitude I've been seeing from them suggests very little good would come of that.

BYD is going to solve that, I think ?

legacy makers need to really adapt. Diess seemed to grok this with VW and they have somewhat regained my respect after the fustercluck that was the Diesel emissions scandal.

Diess is gone though (aside: I was expecting him to pop up at Tesla), and since then the new broom doesn't seem to subscribe to "speculate-to-accumulate"

Significant layoffs, temporary closures / shift reductions and so on.

In my case the love I had for VW went, permanently, with DieselGate, but I think their ID range offering is good - except for the software debacles they have had (seemingly improving, but they have abandoned retro-upgrading the "fixed software" to older vehicles ...)

 

[Zilla91]

Diess seemed to grok this with VW

The guy who was responsible for the complete **** up that is VWs current hardware and software? Yeah, no thanks.

 

[ACarneiro]

The guy who was responsible for the complete **** up that is VWs current hardware and software? Yeah, no thanks.

I think you're being unfair there.
He doesn't really make it happen at the operational level, he sets the direction of travel. And I can imagine that changing the direction of travel for a behemoth like VW must have not been easy (and the growing pains were palpable at the start, but improving).

 

[Zilla91]

He set a direction of travel for haptic feedback buttons on steering wheels, touch sensitive toggles for window switches and touchscreens for everything that VW are now (correctly IMO) retreating from.

The guy was an absolute disaster, but it doesn't surprise me that people who think removing all stalks, a yoke instead of a round wheel and touch screen everything think he was actually any good....

 

[ACarneiro]

He set a direction of travel for haptic feedback buttons on steering wheels, touch sensitive toggles for window switches and touchscreens for everything that VW are now (correctly IMO) retreating from.

The guy was an absolute disaster, but it doesn't surprise me that people who think removing all stalks, a yoke instead of a round wheel and touch screen everything think he was actually any good....

I'm not entirely convinced he would have input to the level of design like that, though. But you seem to have insider knowledge and a strong opinion of him and it's not for me (and I don't really care enough) to change it. Was just putting forward a different point of view.

And, for the record, I too believe the yoke, stalkless, touchscreen everything and all these Tesla "innovations" are ill-advised at best.

 

[Js1977]

He set a direction of travel for haptic feedback buttons on steering wheels, touch sensitive toggles for window switches and touchscreens for everything that VW are now (correctly IMO) retreating from.

The guy was an absolute disaster, but it doesn't surprise me that people who think removing all stalks, a yoke instead of a round wheel and touch screen everything think he was actually any good....

 

[2020M3SR]

Yes. BMW keeps half-assing their EVs by using regular platforms and piling on the kind of unnecessary, cost and complexity driving tech that Tesla is expertly removing from theirs. It's logical that BMW tries to maximize profits from their exploding production cost base and battery-limited pipeline, but that is an approach that doesn't address the fundamental problem of making desirable products.

Tesla is moving too fast for the dinosaurs; and half-assing a response like this isn't going to cut it for very long.

Tesla is moving to fast!? The MY was released 4 years ago and it could be 2 years before we see another new Tesla model. The cybertruck is limited numbers at this point and not a global car in any case, and who knows whats happening with the semi truck thats in a permanent state of beta. Tesla are moving too slow IMO and there should be people driving around in the Tesla compact today, not in 2026.

The dinosaurs on the otherhand are moving at a far greater pace when you look at what is being released on an annual basis. I mean, even when the Tesla compact eventually makes its way here, that $25000 car is £20.7k converted to £, add £1k shipping from China, add 10% import duty, add 20% VAT and we're at £27.3k for what will likely be an even more stripped down model in terms of features.

The question then becomes, at £27k, what makes Tesla M2 a better car than the other options available, such as the iD2 or the MG4 or whatever else there might be to choose from in 2026? We won't know until its unveiled but we're into pulling a rabbit out of a hat territory if they think they will eat everyone elses lunch at £27k a pop. It would need to be an amazing product to be a clear winner in that segment IMO.

We already have the stripped down Volvo EX30 coming this year at £30k, and judging by the Carwow review (or any other one for that matter) its an absolute gem in terms of handling, ride/suspension, cabin noise and the overall driving experience. That's a benchmark of a relatively cheap car that Tesla will need to better, which is a fairly tall order to be honest. Yes, Volvo are a 'legacy' car maker but if you make a good product at the right price, it doesn't really matter.

Volvo are relatively small compared to some of the big hitters, but they are releasing more cars than Tesla in recent years. So 'Tesla is moving too fast' isn't true IMO. I would argue that Tesla have been distracted too much with FSD, AI and Robots which has impacted their bread and butter business, selling cars, hence the wait for the M2 compact?

 

[Js1977]

Tesla are moving too slow IMO and there should be people driving around in the Tesla compact today, not in 2026.

Yes but there are other manufacturers. In saying this, you are saying that ALL is to be expected from tesla... Some others are releasing stuff unless your just fixed on Tesla alone??

Volvo are relatively small compared to some of the big hitters

You do realise who owns Volvo right?..... What car companies does Geely own?

 

[2020M3SR]

Yes but there are other manufacturers. In saying this, you are saying that ALL is to be expected from tesla... Some others are releasing stuff unless your just fixed on Tesla alone??



You do realise who owns Volvo right?..... What car companies does Geely own?

I'm struggling a bit to unpick what you are saying here. My point was addressing the post that said Legacy auto are too slow (in comparison to Tesla) and I said that I thought Tesla were too slow in comparison to others. So I'm failing to understand your 1st point. Are you saying that I expect Tesla to release ALL electric cars and nobody else does? That doesn't make any sense. The next bit around 'some others are releasing stuff' which is a strange thing to say on a thread about Tesla alternatives. Of course some others are releasing stuff, that's what the thread is about.

Yes, fully aware of Geely. I drove a Volvo V90 prior to my M3 and was pleased that it was built in the Swedish factory rather than the S90, which was built in the Geely China factory. A friend in work ended up in an S90 so it was interesting to compare. Bar the saloon/estate differences, build quality was indentical, which as a side point, is quite reassuring when here in the UK we typically (and wrongly) identify Chinese goods as lesser quality.

I'm not sure of your point though. Volvo are still a relatively small car company compared to the big hitters like VW and Toyota. Its just the way the modern world is now with large conglomerates etc, Nestle, P&G have bought up loads of smaller companies over the years and when we look at British car builders like Jaguar Land Rover (Tata Motors) or MG motors (SAIC) is anyone really fully independent anymore? I mean, is Polestar actually Polestar, or is it Volvo, or is it Geely? I think we're dancing on the head of a pin here.

 

[WannabeOwner]

we're into pulling a rabbit out of a hat territory if they think they will eat everyone elses lunch at £27k a pop

is there anything in the Software / Infotainment that a £100K MS / MX Plaid has which the bottom of the range M3 SR RWD doesn't?

I would assume that the £27K M2 will have all the software too. Would that make the price attractive I wonder?

 

[spdpsba]

would assume that the £27K M2 will have all the software too. Would that make the price attractive I wonder?

And it is a hatchback with more space at the rear than a Volvo x 30.

 

[2020M3SR]

is there anything in the Software / Infotainment that a £100K MS / MX Plaid has which the bottom of the range M3 SR RWD doesn't?

I would assume that the £27K M2 will have all the software too. Would that make the price attractive I wonder?

Its an often debated topic, maybe not on this particular forum but how do Tesla position themselves with a M2 without impacting their more expensive offerings? Typically, you would see the quality of the interior reduce when you go down into the smaller car offerings rather than basic functionality, and higher tier stuff getting massage seats type exclusives. BMW iDrive for example is there all the way through the range but the higher up you go, you start to get more features.

Do Tesla lock down some features and put them on a subscription or an extra add on? Its not hugely popular with consumers (I've paid for the product but you've locked features) so it will be interesting to see how they position this kind of car. Tesla manufacturing process goes by its own rule book and I expect the M2 to be no different. Build the cars exactly the same with a few different paint colours and maybe 2 seat colours compared to the likes of VW who will build to order for the most part, this car gets heated seats, that car doesn't, this car gets a HUD, this one doesn't.

I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these discussions. I'm actually more interested in their business strategy versus the actual car. Do they continue with their own rulebook and give M2 owners the entire Tesla infotainment experience? They can't really strip back on the interior much as the existing M3 and MY are minimalist designs already. Taking away heated seats and steering wheel wouldn't be a good idea in an EV as those things help with overall winter range. So I'm not sure what they'll do but I'm really interested in how they will navigate this. Off the top of my head, cheaper sound system perhaps and no glass roof? I think those are reasonable things to remove.

But if they reduce the infotainment (which saves Tesla no money) then they lose some competitive edge without saving any money, so thats not a great idea. And if they give customers the full Tesla infotainment experience, then that might impact sales of their other models. M3 customers buying M2 instead. Maybe they'll reduce the screen size down to 10 or 12 inches, to create a bit of a separation?

So how do they position the M2? I think its bound to be a hugely discussed topic in the Tesla boardroom as its absolutely essential to get this right. The goal is obviously to sell a ton of M2 cars while continuing to increase M3 or MY sales at the same time, so what is the best way to achieve that? I find that hugely interesting from a business strategy point of view.

 

[2020M3SR]

And it is a hatchback with more space at the rear than a Volvo x 30.

Is there some breaking news we don't know about

Yeah, the EX30 boot is tiny, smallest in class as I understand it, 300 and something litres.

 

[spdpsba]

Is there some breaking news we don't know about

Of course, You just have to see their short history to understand their car making. A four door coupe/saloon, big SUV and a truck (American market), a small saloon and hatchback (European/chinese/Autralasia market) and a small hatchback big enough for families (European and Indian market - Elon had few meetings with their leaders and he is specifically discussing EV subsidies NOT size of the vehicle. In India vehicles less than 4m (Jeep avenger size) are eligible for subsidies and can be sold for less. That clearly points towards something slightly bigger than the avenger.

 

[browellm]

And it is a hatchback with more space at the rear than a Volvo x 30.

A car you've made up in your head has more space than at the rear than an actual real car. OK, great.

 

[Kvitravn]

How do you know, have you driven one?

I'm just a random guy on the internet that thought my e60 M5 was a big heavy car - the i5 is half a ton heavier and Harry runs out of travel at normal speeds on average roads. I guess it goes back to what your expectations are - mid spec i5s are probably fairly adequate replacements for leased 530Ds but that M badge is just delusional.

There's actually an X5 that's a few kilos heavier so the i5 M60 isn't technically heavier than an X5.But hey, what do I know about what BMW wants to be these days. I grew up around performance BMWs and i think it would be easier for everyone if they just changed the brand.

Harrys take on the (first generation) M3P was pretty well rounded I'd say.