Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[RobStark]

$63k is the *base* price. There's no indication at all that they're planning to launch a cheaper version.

View attachment 463765

I mean, they certainly could decide to later, but so far, this is just your speculation.

And it's pretty far from a spec match for the Model 3. You have to either really want a hatch or really hate Tesla to give up as much as you have to for this Chinese-made Model 3 knockoff.

It is not my speculation.Right now Polestar is only taking orders for the top spec Polestar 2 called Launch Edition. It cost $63k. Cheaper versions are coming.

Volvo taking on Tesla with Chinese-built Polestar 2 electric car: details and photos


You may want a more conventional exterior or interior.

A leather interior. Or service and parts at your local Volvo dealer.

 

[KarenRei]

It is not my speculation.Right now Polestar is only taking orders for the top spec Polestar 2 called Launch Edition. It cost $63k. Cheaper versions are coming.

Volvo taking on Tesla with Chinese-built Polestar 2 electric car: details and photos


You may want a more conventional exterior or interior.

A leather interior. Or service and parts at your local Volvo dealer.

"19 Feb 2019". That's highly outdated information. Just like how Porsche spent years talking about how the Taycan would be "priced like an entry-level Panamera" (e.g. $85k).

And I guess there exist people who (vs. M3P) would give up 13% range, have half the peak charge rate (mi/min / km/min), no access to Superchargers, ~83% of the power, 0-60 in "less than 5 seconds", no Autopilot, and on and on and on, for a car made by Geely in China, and to pay more money for it, for a hatch and an (extra cost) option to add dead cows to the interior. Right? Surely there are some.

I can't take this car seriously. Oh, they'll sell some. But it looks like just another in a long list of disappointing EV offerings on the market.

 

[RobStark]

"19 Feb 2019". That's highly outdated information. Just like how Porsche spent years talking about how the Taycan would be "priced like an entry-level Panamera" (e.g. $85k).

And I guess there exist people who would give up ~15% range, have half the peak charge rate (mi/min / km/min), no access to Superchargers, ~83% of the power, etc etc for a car made by Geely, and to pay more money for it, for a hatch and an (extra cost) option to add dead cows to the interior. Right? Surely there are some.

Just as outdated as specs on Semi,Roadster, and Model Y.

Turbo isn't Porsche's base spec. There will be cheaper versions coming of Taycan.

Like Tesla Model 3 didn't launch with SR available.

Right. Some people prefer leather to polyurethane.

Some people value getting a part at the parts counter same day vs 6 months special order more than the Supercharger Network. As evidenced by people buying $35k Plus BEVs that are not Tesla.

Some people think a power/volume knob is deal breaker.

Different strokes for different folks.

People who think Tesla will have 100% market share on $35k plus BEVs are just nuts.

And Polestar 2 will qualify for $7,500 Federal Credit in USA while next year no Tesla will qualify for any piece of the Federal Credit. Unless Trump signs a bill reauthorizing the credit for GM/Tesla in the middle of impeachment. Or Congress overrides Trump Veto with 2/3 vote.

 

[KarenRei]

Just as outdated as specs on Semi,Roadster, and Model Y.

Turbo isn't Porsche's base spec. There will be cheaper versions coming of Taycan.

"More details are emerging about Porsche's highly anticipated electric car, dubbed the Mission E. Porsche's chairman, Oliver Blume, told CAR Magazine the vehicle will go on sale by the end of 2019 and will be "priced like entry-level Panamera," which begins at $85,000."

How is anyone supposed to interpret that apart from the car being launched in 2019 starting at around $85k?

Like Tesla Model 3 didn't launch with SR available.

Tesla advertised that the launch version would be the LR. Porsche advertised that the launch version - 2019 - would start around the price of an entry-level Panamera.

Right. Some people prefer leather to polyurethane.

And others prefer synthetics to leather. But a leather interior is not a part of the $63k Polestar regardless; it's an added extra. So if you want to talk about added extras, where's the Polestar option for FSD, with Navigate on Autopilot and Smart Summon?

Some people value getting a part at the parts counter same day vs 6 months special order

You seriously can't believe that if you get in a collision in a Geely... I'm sorry, "Volvo"... that you can get replacement parts same day.

My Ford truck (sold recently) spent all winter at the shop because of a repeated cycle of, "Wait for a slot" / "Investigate and find what needs to be fixed" / "Order parts" / "Wait for parts" / "Wait for another open slot" / "Start working on installing the new parts" / "Discover something else wrong i the process" / "Order more parts"....

Your notion that non-Tesla brands get instantaneous repairs is either laughable naivete or a deliberate misrepresentation. As is the notion that a typical repair time on a Tesla is six months.

more than the Supercharger Network. As evidenced by people buying $35k Plus BEVs that are not Tesla.

In oh-so-great quantities Model 3 sells around as many as every other BEV and PHEV combined in the US.

Some people think a power/volume knob is deal breaker.

You mean like Model 3 has on the steering wheel?

And yes, people can decide to hate Tesla. That's why Tesla doesn't have, and never will have, 100% of the market share, and all the "also rans" can fight over the scraps.

People who think Tesla will have 100% market share on $35k plus BEVs are just nuts.

Holy straw men, Batman!

And Polestar 2 will qualify for $7,500 Federal Credit in USA while next year no Tesla will qualify for any piece of the Federal Credit.

Anyone who thinks that they know what the US tax structure will be a year from now is kidding themselves. And full credits have hardly led to massive sales for (much more reasonably priced, non-Geely) Tesla "competitors".

 

[j6Lpi429@3j]

I'm sure the polestar is a great car, but they are predicting july 2020 delivery. Thats fab, but why bother comparing it to the October 2019 model 3? lets compare it to the july 2020 model 3, likely with even better autopilot, and whatever new possibilities Maxwell tech etc adds to the performance or range of the model 3.

And of course that blindly assumes that volvo are correct and production does not slip, which seems very unlikely.

And... thats another 3 quarters of likely record production from tesla between now and when this car hits the street. Thats a minimum of another 300,000 teslas out there giving friends rides and test drives, and making them seem even more *the* electric car.

I wish the polestar well..but its seriously, seriously late to the party.

 

[mrdoubleb]

The 49k GBP/$63k car is a fully loaded Launch Edition, not the starting price.

The Model 3 is not a hatchback.

The Model Y does have a hatchback. The Model Y Performance is going to be about $63k.

The Model Y rear wheel drive with SR+ pack from Model 3 will be around $43k.

That is the starting price of the base Polestar 2.

Launching with Top Spec or nearly Top Spec BEVs is becoming industry standard.

Any more excuses you want to throw in there for Volvo who can`t back-up their past claims, or are you done with that? Other than the exhaustive list of arguments @KarenRei mentioned in her response, can we - in general - just stop comparing future EVs with no firm price or availability dates to current Tesla models?

VW pulled the same sugar with the ID3. For years they have leaked and suggested and at certain points even confirmed that it will start at "the price of a diesel Golf", start production in 2019 and in the first year will make 100k of these then scale to 15 million "electrified" vehicles by 2025. Then the ID3 came out with a "1st edition" costing EUR 40k (Golf TDI = EUR 24k) with deliveries starting in 2020 (so not 2019) and they will make 30k of them.

Yes, there will be a base version for EUR 30k but no exact launch date is set yet and yeah, still 25% more expensive than the Golf.

Taycan same deal. "Panamera price", "350kW charging", "500km range" - reality: 150k-180k price, 270kW charging 350-450km WLTP range.

Yes, there will be a base version with lower price and yes in the future they will offer a battery pack for 350kW charging, but no exact dates have been confirmed.

Polestar 2 same deal all over again. It is a very attractive design (looks like a Volvo to me - which is a compliment! -, so no idea why the new brand...), some may very well prefer it to Teslas and I personally wouldn`t mind if someone put one in my garage, but they were teasing Model 3 pricing, range and performance.

Turns out that will come at some point in the future...

All these cars may become very successful in their own right, but even if the production ramp got delayed by ~6 months for the Model 3, Tesla has met the performance, rage and price commitments it set out 3 years ago. (Well, sort of... SR has never been an option in Europe and is off-menu in the US now).

You want to compare these cars to Teslas? Fine. But compare current models to current models, or future models to future models.

 

[EinSV]

Any more excuses you want to throw in there for Volvo who can`t back-up their past claims, or are you done with that? Other than the exhaustive list of arguments @KarenRei mentioned in her response, can we - in general - just stop comparing future EVs with no firm price or availability dates to current Tesla models?

VW pulled the same sugar with the ID3. For years they have leaked and suggested and at certain points even confirmed that it will start at "the price of a diesel Golf", start production in 2019 and in the first year will make 100k of these then scale to 15 million "electrified" vehicles by 2025. Then the ID3 came out with a "1st edition" costing EUR 40k (Golf TDI = EUR 24k) with deliveries starting in 2020 (so not 2019) and they will make 30k of them.

Yes, there will be a base version for EUR 30k but no exact launch date is set yet and yeah, still 25% more expensive than the Golf.

Taycan same deal. "Panamera price", "350kW charging", "500km range" - reality: 150k-180k price, 270kW charging 350-450km WLTP range.

Yes, there will be a base version with lower price and yes in the future they will offer a battery pack for 350kW charging, but no exact dates have been confirmed.

Polestar 2 same deal all over again. It is a very attractive design (looks like a Volvo to me - which is a compliment! -, so no idea why the new brand...), some may very well prefer it to Teslas and I personally wouldn`t mind if someone put one in my garage, but they were teasing Model 3 pricing, range and performance.

Turns out that will come at some point in the future...

All these cars may become very successful in their own right, but even if the production ramp got delayed by ~6 months for the Model 3, Tesla has met the performance, rage and price commitments it set out 3 years ago. (Well, sort of... SR has never been an option in Europe and is off-menu in the US now).

You want to compare these cars to Teslas? Fine. But compare current models to current models, or future models to future models.

Agree with this and would just add one thing. Before making any comparison you need the full specs, including the list of options and their prices.

A "base" Model 3 SR+ comes very well equipped, including with Autopilot standard, a full array of active safety features, panoramic roof, upgraded seats and sound system and other features that are expensive options that cost many thousands of dollars on other brands.

Another reason the teaser prices for base models that are "coming soon" are unhelpful if not misleading.

 

[dc_h]

"19 Feb 2019". That's highly outdated information. Just like how Porsche spent years talking about how the Taycan would be "priced like an entry-level Panamera" (e.g. $85k).

And I guess there exist people who (vs. M3P) would give up 13% range, have half the peak charge rate (mi/min / km/min), no access to Superchargers, ~83% of the power, 0-60 in "less than 5 seconds", no Autopilot, and on and on and on, for a car made by Geely in China, and to pay more money for it, for a hatch and an (extra cost) option to add dead cows to the interior. Right? Surely there are some.

I can't take this car seriously. Oh, they'll sell some. But it looks like just another in a long list of disappointing EV offerings on the market.

I doubt the Polestar is going to compete on price or performance. It doesn’t have to though. It will sell as a Volvo and that’s great. They’ve made a car much closer and in some respects better then their ICE products. Is it as good as the 3 in performance, AP, price and integrated software, nope. Will it have interfaces that some consumers will prefer, for sure.
When I hit this site in 2012 I never thought Tesla would get a 7 year head start. We all figured some competition by 2015 or 2016. Now 2020 in model years and this is the closest anyone has come to a competitive product. Kudos to Volvo and kudos to Tesla. This all makes EV’s more the future and encourages people to defer buying gas cars. Some won’t buy that brash newcomer and some will buy nothing else. This is the outcome we all want, right?

 

[Runarbt]

Agree with this and would just add one thing. Before making any comparison you need the full specs, including the list of options and their prices.

A "base" Model 3 SR+ comes very well equipped, including with Autopilot standard, a full array of active safety features, panoramic roof, upgraded seats and sound system and other features that are expensive options that cost many thousands of dollars on other brands.

Another reason the teaser prices for base models that are "coming soon" are unhelpful if not misleading.

SR+ only have stereo sound I think. 14+1 loudspeakers was my main reason to opt for LR, bonus was AWD and longer range. ;-)

Edit: doesnt really say, SR+ has upgraded immersive sound. Guess its more than stereo, but 1amp and maybe no sub? LR has 14+1 loudspeaker, 2 amps etc

 

[UncaNed]

.

I doubt the Polestar is going to compete on price or performance. It doesn’t have to though. It will sell as a Volvo and that’s great. They’ve made a car much closer and in some respects better then their ICE products. Is it as good as the 3 in performance, AP, price and integrated software, nope. Will it have interfaces that some consumers will prefer, for sure.
When I hit this site in 2012 I never thought Tesla would get a 7 year head start. We all figured some competition by 2015 or 2016. Now 2020 in model years and this is the closest anyone has come to a competitive product. Kudos to Volvo and kudos to Tesla. This all makes EV’s more the future and encourages people to defer buying gas cars. Some won’t buy that brash newcomer and some will buy nothing else. This is the outcome we all want, right?

????
Polestar hasn't "made a car" closer to anything, have they?

 

[EinSV]

SR+ only have stereo sound I think. 14+1 loudspeakers was my main reason to opt for LR, bonus was AWD and longer range. ;-)

Edit: doesnt really say, SR+ has upgraded immersive sound. Guess its more than stereo, but 1amp and maybe no sub? LR has 14+1 loudspeaker, 2 amps etc

SR+ doesn't have the full sound system upgrade of the LR but does have upgraded audio with immersive sound (8 speakers activated I believe). Plus many other standard features that are expensive options in cars like the ID.3 as well as most premium/luxury cars.

 

[dc_h]

.

????
Polestar hasn't "made a car" closer to anything, have they?

Not yet
I expect the Model Y will be shipping in volume before the Polestar starts.

 

[kbM3]

The Model Y does have a hatchback. The Model Y Performance is going to be about $63k.

The Model Y rear wheel drive with SR+ pack from Model 3 will be around $43k.

That is the starting price of the base Polestar 2.

Launching with Top Spec or nearly Top Spec BEVs is becoming industry standard.

The Model Y is a CUV;
1) 5+2 seater
2) 66 cu. ft. cargo.
3) Sits higher.

Very few people would cross shop a Mazda 3 hatchback with a Toyota Rav 4 CUV.

 

[StealthP3D]

A leather interior. Or service and parts at your local Volvo dealer.

Wouldn't most people rather have a Mobile Service tech come to their home or workplace if their car needed something done to it?

 

[keydiver]

The Model Y does have a hatchback. The Model Y Performance is going to be about $63k.

I don't think it is fair to compare the Polestar to a Performance Model Y. There is nothing in their advertising that makes me think this thing has a track mode, and the sub 5 second 0-60 is closer to the specs of the Model Y LR AWD at $52,000.
That said though, I can only hope the Polestar lives up to the hype, sells well, and they are able to bring the price down to be truly competitive.

 

[MP3Mike]

Turbo isn't Porsche's base spec. There will be cheaper versions coming of Taycan.

Maybe, but Porsche even lies on their starting price. For the Taycan Turbo they say it starts at $150,900. But the second you go to configure one it adds two mandatory options that brings the price up to $153,510. (Of course they claim you might be able to not order those "options" in June, maybe.) And even then one of the items will be required, you will just have the option of paying even more for a better portable EVSE.

 

[MP3Mike]

The 49k GBP/$63k car is a fully loaded Launch Edition, not the starting price.

Well not fully loaded, as you have the option of adding the Performance package. (Unless that is free. )

 

[wdolson]

"More details are emerging about Porsche's highly anticipated electric car, dubbed the Mission E. Porsche's chairman, Oliver Blume, told CAR Magazine the vehicle will go on sale by the end of 2019 and will be "priced like entry-level Panamera," which begins at $85,000."

How is anyone supposed to interpret that apart from the car being launched in 2019 starting at around $85k?



Tesla advertised that the launch version would be the LR. Porsche advertised that the launch version - 2019 - would start around the price of an entry-level Panamera.



And others prefer synthetics to leather. But a leather interior is not a part of the $63k Polestar regardless; it's an added extra. So if you want to talk about added extras, where's the Polestar option for FSD, with Navigate on Autopilot and Smart Summon?



You seriously can't believe that if you get in a collision in a Geely... I'm sorry, "Volvo"... that you can get replacement parts same day.

My Ford truck (sold recently) spent all winter at the shop because of a repeated cycle of, "Wait for a slot" / "Investigate and find what needs to be fixed" / "Order parts" / "Wait for parts" / "Wait for another open slot" / "Start working on installing the new parts" / "Discover something else wrong i the process" / "Order more parts"....

Your notion that non-Tesla brands get instantaneous repairs is either laughable naivete or a deliberate misrepresentation. As is the notion that a typical repair time on a Tesla is six months.



In oh-so-great quantities Model 3 sells around as many as every other BEV and PHEV combined in the US.



You mean like Model 3 has on the steering wheel?

And yes, people can decide to hate Tesla. That's why Tesla doesn't have, and never will have, 100% of the market share, and all the "also rans" can fight over the scraps.



Holy straw men, Batman!



Anyone who thinks that they know what the US tax structure will be a year from now is kidding themselves. And full credits have hardly led to massive sales for (much more reasonably priced, non-Geely) Tesla "competitors".

Are you talking about getting your Ford truck fixed in Iceland? The Ford F series is the best selling vehicle in North America. If you need parts most Ford dealers have the common ones in stock and get get most others in a day. Depending where you are, Volvo parts may be easily available or may take some time, but the parts are almost always sitting on a shelf somewhere. When you order parts from Tesla, sometimes they haven't even been made yet, which is a very inefficient way to run a parts system.

Every other car company makes sets of body panels for parts supplies and so finding a replacement body part for a modern car that has been in an accident is usually not a problem. Tesla has been beginning to stock some parts in some places, but they are way behind the competition when it comes to spare parts.

Volvo also has a decent self driving system. Consumer Reports rated Volvo's system higher than Tesla's last year, though with some caveats. Volvo's current system is not as ambitious, but what it does it does better than AP. Or did last fall when it was tested. AP has improved a lot since then.

In any case I expect Tesla still has a few years until anyone is able to compete with them on price (for what you get) and volume. The iPace and eTron are the only things out there that are comparable size to any Tesla offerings and current production is small. The Taycan will be out very soon, but again in small numbers.

The range of the competition so far has been lackluster, which probably isn't a big negative for Europe, but is for the US. I've been on a road trip the last week and have wished for a 370 mile range a few times. Some legs I had to charge twice where I could have skipped a supercharger if I had a little more range. I did over 600 miles yesterday and am just about to leave on the last leg of 400.

 

[KarenRei]

Are you talking about getting your Ford truck fixed in Iceland? The Ford F series is the best selling vehicle in North America. If you need parts most Ford dealers have the common ones in stock and get get most others in a day.

Older model, and in-between-platform-generation model. I could also go into my Honda, and its numerous problems, which I'd report, and the dealership would inspect, then return the car to me... without long wait times, and without charging me for the problems, but also without fixing anything :Þ

Depending where you are, Volvo parts may be easily available or may take some time, but the parts are almost always sitting on a shelf somewhere. When you order parts from Tesla, sometimes they haven't even been made yet

Dubious at present. Perhaps with some parts early in the scaleup.

As much as Tesla service problems get widely shared, overall, owner ratings for Tesla's service are pretty middle of the pack, with consumers rating mobile service especially well. Bernstein's survey showed overall ratings at 42% of owners describing Tesla's service in 2018 as "excellent" (down from 57% in 2017) due to the Model 3 scaleup, but that's still a pretty average figure. Mobile service was ranked excellent by 70%.

The short of it is that nobody really likes service from any brand that much.

Volvo also has a decent self driving system. Consumer Reports rated Volvo's system higher than Tesla's last year

I think you're mixing things up. It was Cadillac Supercruise that they ranked higher.

Cadillac Tops Tesla in Consumer Reports' First Ranking of Automated Driving Systems

But their metric would also (literally) have rated my living room couch better than Autopilot, so that's not saying much.

 

[ggr]

If Volvo and Jaguar merged, they could call their luxury offering "Polecat".