Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[Brando]

WWII didn't make Japan and China life long friends. Japanese killing millions of Chinese is not easily forgotten
China did in the past try to invade Japan twice - and luckily for Japan, storms stopped the Naval invasion.
(similar to the Spanish Armada being wrecked when they attempted to invade England)

 

[RobStark]

We nuked Japan. Twice.

And reduced Germany to rubble.

Japanese and German companies don't have a problem investing in the US.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

We nuked Japan. Twice.

And reduced Germany to rubble.

Japanese and German companies don't have a problem investing in the US.

Those were very different from the Rape of Nanking. Granted all sorts of atrocities happen during war, but some are especially heinous. It would be like expecting Jews to forgive the Nazi's.

 

[RobStark]

Those were very different from the Rape of Nanking. Granted all sorts of atrocities happen during war, but some are especially heinous. It would be like expecting Jews to forgive the Nazi's.

Jews are perfectly willing to do business with and in Germany.

Nissan isn't headed by Tojo Militarist or Nazi equivalents.

 

[SwTslaGrl]

The 2012 issue [ 2012 China anti-Japanese demonstrations - Wikipedia ] made Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Panasonic, Canon, Kobe Steel and Fast Retailing temporarily close down in China..

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

Jews are perfectly willing to do business with and in Germany.

Nissan isn't headed by Tojo Militarist or Nazi equivalents.

I said "Nazis", not Germany. There isn't an easily identified group in Japan, so all Japanese got vilified.

 

[Brando]

We nuked Japan. Twice.

And reduced Germany to rubble.

Japanese and German companies don't have a problem investing in the US.

yes, and we re-built both counties.
Ended Emperor of Japan and guided writing of Japan constitution. (we still have troops there)
[Edward Demings taught Japan industries - they still have annual "Demings Award" in Japan]
[GE built most of the Nuclear Plants ~53 in Japan AP-1000s]

Put on trial German war criminals (still have 35,000 soldiers in Germany)

US sells weapons to both countries as well.

China and Japan? I suspect, only suspect, Japan gets somethings made in China, how much??

 

[wdolson]

WWII didn't make Japan and China life long friends. Japanese killing millions of Chinese is not easily forgotten
China did in the past try to invade Japan twice - and luckily for Japan, storms stopped the Naval invasion.
(similar to the Spanish Armada being wrecked when they attempted to invade England)

The Chinese and Japanese do have a difficult history. The Koreans tried to invade Japan too. The term "kamikaze" = "divine wind" comes from the Korean invasion when a typhoon wrecked their fleet.

We nuked Japan. Twice.

And reduced Germany to rubble.

Japanese and German companies don't have a problem investing in the US.

The US actively worked to repair the relationship with Germany and Japan after the war. Probably in part because of the growing cold war, the US thought it imperative to rebuild Germany and Japan into strong allies. During WW II the US treated all POWs within the Geneva Convention and most POWs learned the Americans mostly played fair. My father encountered German POWs from the Afrika Korps at Dayton AFB in Ohio during the war (they ran the mess hall). He said they were joking with one another and seemed happy.

When those people returned to their home countries they took their stories with them.

In the war in the Pacific the US had to get brutal with Japan, but tried to "play fair" at first. When the Japanese found out how the Americans treated Japanese prisoners vs how they treated Allied POWs, quite a number felt shame.

Japan's occupation of China was one of the most brutal in history. The Rape of Nanking was so over the top that the head of the German consulate there, who was known to be a hard core Nazi, thought the Japanese were being too brutal.

After the war Japan didn't apologize to China until the 1970s and the Chinese has always felt the apologies were less than sincere. Though Japan may have meant it.

After the war, Japan again became the strongest economy in Asia, which China did not like. As China's economy slowly came back, Japan and China became regional rivals and that has made buying the hatchet difficult.

 

[RobStark]

I said "Nazis", not Germany. There isn't an easily identified group in Japan, so all Japanese got vilified.

Yeah, Germans didn't get vilified.

 

[YasB]

Tesla pulled off a miracle with this efficiency

Indeed. It's almost as admirable and well-engineered as the Hyundai Ioniq.

 

[SteveG3]

Indeed. It's almost as admirable and well-engineered as the Hyundai Ioniq.

124 miles of range and 118 hp?

Tesla knew EVs would never get out of the golf cart perception with out far more compelling vehicles than the Ioniq. The point is transitioning from ICE to EVs not providing a product to a niche of consumers.

 

[YasB]

124 miles of range and 118 hp?

Tesla knew EVs would never get out of the golf cart perception with out far more compelling vehicles than the Ioniq. The point is transitioning from ICE to EVs not providing a product to a niche of consumers.

I was only about 29% serious. It's just that reducing dozens of criteria that are at play, when somebody is buying a car, to 2 or 3 that are useful to make that certain point why it is better, is something i will never get. Yes, the Model 3 efficiency and range are really impressive. But there is somebody building an even more efficient car. If that's what you want really badly, it might be an alternative. Yes, the I-Pace is smaller than the Model X, so what? That's an advantage not a disadvantage. That impressive effiency or range do not make the Model 3 a better car for me, if there is no option to get a HUD or a more standard dashboard.

Yes, i'm aware that this is a difficult point to make in a Tesla forum. ;-)

 

[Unpilot]

I was only about 29% serious. It's just that reducing dozens of criteria that are at play, when somebody is buying a car, to 2 or 3 that are useful to make that certain point why it is better, is something i will never get. Yes, the Model 3 efficiency and range are really impressive. But there is somebody building an even more efficient car. If that's what you want really badly, it might be an alternative. Yes, the I-Pace is smaller than the Model X, so what? That's an advantage not a disadvantage. That impressive effiency or range do not make the Model 3 a better car for me, if there is no option to get a HUD or a more standard dashboard.

Yes, i'm aware that this is a difficult point to make in a Tesla forum. ;-)

If you want a "city" car the I-pace would be a nice second car for sure. For a lot of folks they want a car not a city only car.
Currently they have one choice...well one car company choice.

 

[electracity]

The BMW i3 was supposed to be a tour de force to exemplify BMW's engineering prowess in making the most efficient vehicle possible.

Nah. They used cheap, heavy and inexpensive carbon fiber technology that looks to be a technological dead end.

 

[scaesare]

That impressive effiency or range do not make the Model 3 a better car for me, if there is no option to get a HUD or a more standard dashboard.

Certainly everybody has their subjective criteria for what they feel they need. If a chrome knob to adjust the temperature is yours, then so be it.

But, objectively speaking, there are some things that I suspect the vast majority of folks would agree are "better".

For instance: I can drive 200 miles in a Model 3 even if I have to resort to a soft-button to adjust the temp. However, I cannot drive 200 miles in an Ioniq no matter how much I turn my shiny temp knob.

Generally speaking, capability > baubles, for many.

 

[bdy0627]

If you want a "city" car the I-pace would be a nice second car for sure. For a lot of folks they want a car not a city only car.
Currently they have one choice...well one car company choice.

For Jaguar aficionados, hopefully it has enough appeal to win them over vs the Jaguar ICE variants.

 

[bdy0627]

I've got a neighbor with 3 Porsches. That's all they buy. He is excited about the Mission E, though they have never had a BEV. Their Porsche SUV is a hybrid. I think the Mission E is going to make a big splash even though it won't be a high volume vehicle. Porsche appears to be going all out with it.

 

[Remus]

I was only about 29% serious. It's just that reducing dozens of criteria that are at play, when somebody is buying a car, to 2 or 3 that are useful to make that certain point why it is better, is something i will never get. Yes, the Model 3 efficiency and range are really impressive. But there is somebody building an even more efficient car. If that's what you want really badly, it might be an alternative. Yes, the I-Pace is smaller than the Model X, so what? That's an advantage not a disadvantage. That impressive effiency or range do not make the Model 3 a better car for me, if there is no option to get a HUD or a more standard dashboard.

Yes, i'm aware that this is a difficult point to make in a Tesla forum. ;-)

The efficiency directly impact charging speed, it takes much longer for i-pace to regain similar range than a model 3 can. And combination of long range and high efficiency is an engineering achievement that only Tesla has.

Yes, your argument is hard to fly because you ignore all the tesla advantages that ordinary EV buyers care most about ( range and charging speed) and cherry pick the 'features' Tesla doesn't offer and most people are indifferent. That makes you part of very small market segment called Tesla haters that is totally ignorable

 

[phil0909]

Wait, for the price of the i-pace you can order a P3D, which is not delayed much at all. In fact my neighbor, who test drove my Model 3 in maybe March and was blown away by the performance and modernness, put in a reservation a week later and already got called to configure his P3D with the promise of taking deliver in july or august.
The P3D will blow the i-pace out of the water, has proper supercharging, autopilot with the promise of fully selfdriving features being around the corner, and all the other cool things tesla. Its a no-contest really isnt it?

Eh, true enough, but I'm not sure I actually care about any of those things. Do I need to go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, rather than 4.5? Not really. Supercharging? I always take the big gas guzzler SUV on road trips, much easier. Autopilot? The Jag has auto steer and ACC, as does the Tesla; I expect Tesla's is somewhat better, but until they really can drive themselves, who cares? And I believe real self driving is many years away.

The I-Pace also has advantages over the Model 3:
- Leasing available
- Hatchback
- Android Auto
- 360 degree surround camera view
- Extensive luxury features and options you won't find on any Tesla
- Maybe Jaguar can actually deliver on schedule!

I really like both cars, though they each have their quirks and shortcomings. Had Tesla delivered on its initial delivery timing estimate, or any of the next three estimates they gave me, I'd already be driving a Model 3. Maybe now I'll just wait and see who delivers first.

 

[EVMeister]

"I always take the big gas guzzler SUV on road trips, much easier." Certainly is, if that's your only choice.

Now back to Market Action, please.