SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The cheapest available. I presume that is wind/solar that would otherwise be curtailed
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I think that depends on the electricity market rules, and the supply/demand imbalance in the market...
For example in Australia we can get peaks with large negative prices in the wholesale market (NEM) for example you might be paid $1000 AUD per MWh to take electricity sometimes, other times you might be paid $1000 per MWh to supply electricity...
We have occasional spikes of extreme prices in both directions.. my impression is California is similar in someways...
As RE becomes a higher portion of grid electricity there is always a chance that storage might lag creating supply/demand imbalances. In a market based system price signals eventually correct things .but there is usually a bit of chaos before that happens...
In the long run grids with high RE will have lower prices, on average, but more price volatility, until the solution fully matures and is optimised.
From my reading of RenewEnergy (I don't live in Australia, so I recognize I may be missing a lot!), part of the huge swings in electricity prices arises from a large settlement window (30 minutes I believe) where the electricity price is the same, plus fossil fuel electric providers taking advantage of the system. I've seen the term 'rorting' used to describe the behavior, but I'm not familiar with that word (slang?), so I'm not using it myself. (Maybe a quick lesson in Aussie English would be helpful to this speaker of US English
)With 30 minutes to sell at inflated prices, providers are incented to take plants offline for maintenance or whatever, so that the rest of their plants can get a grossly inflated price for their electricity.
I believe that's shrinking the last few years.
It might be that dynamic is going on in the US as well. Oddly, I feel like I know the Australia electric grid and the big issues in it, better than I know the US grid and the big issues here. I think that's primarily because I haven't found a readable website that covers the US power grid / market.
It's a real word, although I've only heard it used in Australia. It is usually applied to misusing existing rules, as happened to South Australia a couple of years ago.From my reading of RenewEnergy (I don't live in Australia, so I recognize I may be missing a lot!), part of the huge swings in electricity prices arises from a large settlement window (30 minutes I believe) where the electricity price is the same, plus fossil fuel electric providers taking advantage of the system. I've seen the term 'rorting' used to describe the behavior, but I'm not familiar with that word (slang?), so I'm not using it myself. (Maybe a quick lesson in Aussie English would be helpful to this speaker of US English
With 30 minutes to sell at inflated prices, providers are incented to take plants offline for maintenance or whatever, so that the rest of their plants can get a grossly inflated price for their electricity.
I believe that's shrinking the last few years.
It might be that dynamic is going on in the US as well. Oddly, I feel like I know the Australia electric grid and the big issues in it, better than I know the US grid and the big issues here. I think that's primarily because I haven't found a readable website that covers the US power grid / market.
rort
- n.
A scam or fraud, especially involving the misappropriation of public money or resources. - v.
To cheat or defraud.
From my reading of RenewEnergy (I don't live in Australia, so I recognize I may be missing a lot!), part of the huge swings in electricity prices arises from a large settlement window (30 minutes I believe) where the electricity price is the same, plus fossil fuel electric providers taking advantage of the system. I've seen the term 'rorting' used to describe the behavior, but I'm not familiar with that word (slang?), so I'm not using it myself. (Maybe a quick lesson in Aussie English would be helpful to this speaker of US English
With 30 minutes to sell at inflated prices, providers are incented to take plants offline for maintenance or whatever, so that the rest of their plants can get a grossly inflated price for their electricity.
I believe that's shrinking the last few years.
It might be that dynamic is going on in the US as well. Oddly, I feel like I know the Australia electric grid and the big issues in it, better than I know the US grid and the big issues here. I think that's primarily because I haven't found a readable website that covers the US power grid / market.
The rorting accusation springs mainly from bidding practices in the NEM (wholesale market) the last bit of capacity bid in sets the price for all participants at the highest price... these high prices tend to come late, so that capacity is held out of the market while the company bidding has other lower prices bids in which will all get the high price.
Companies are just maximising returns, the rules do in many cases favour FF participants, there is resistance to change like 5 minute settlement and boards seem overly inclined to protect the interest of large incumbents..
The state governments used to own generation and distribution (poles and wires), these were privatised and the initial rules were design to make those assets attractive to buyers. This was sold to the public as competition lowering prices, but so far that hasn't worked.
Step back bit and the average household bill is roughtly:-
- 30% Wholesale
- 30% Distribution (network, poles and wires)
- 30% Retail.
Network prices are inflated by 'gold plating' of the network specifically over investment tin substations, the rules predicted an increase in electricity demand and demand reduced due to prices, home solar, energy efficiency, etc.
Retail is the most interesting 30%, one state Victoria in theory had a lot of competitive retailers, but prices remained high, digging deeper many of these were owned by common entities...
Retailers also had a lot of misleading contracts and offers that were hard to compare, they spent a lot of money trying to poach customers from other retailers....
It is not uncommon in Australia for "fleecing the consumer" to be a standard business practice. (Another bit of jargon, it means robbing or over charging.)
The partner for Tesla is the SA VPP is a retailer called Energy Locals, they are the closest thing we have here to an honest customer focused retailer. My hope is that Energy Locals and Tesla can expand the VPP to other states and areas and in the process introduce much needed retailer competition. A smaller retailer like energy locals needs something like VPP to help reduce their wholesale and hedging costs.
The high network cost favour "behind the meter" .i.e home solar and batteries, all we need here is home batteries at the right price, and the adoption curve will be steep. In the long run the network cost needs to be a separate item on the bill and efforts need to be made to reduce it.
Electricity prices are expected to fall in Australia, but it will sill be a good market for Powerwalls for the next 5-10 years... perhaps longer.
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This is going to help sell a lot of energy storage batteries:-
Australian regulator flags new "reliability" rules for wind and solar farms | RenewEconomy
It is a dumb rule and it is going to blow up in the face of those thinking it will help prop up FF generation..
Australian regulator flags new "reliability" rules for wind and solar farms | RenewEconomy
It is a dumb rule and it is going to blow up in the face of those thinking it will help prop up FF generation..
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
Kind of like Texas opening up their energy markets to inject more natural gas plants and now it's on a fast track to 100% renewables.
jhm
Well-Known Member
More batteries will kill FF faster.
I saw this rather slanted Australian "news" report from a couple weeks ago.
That news channel is associated with Rupert Murdoch all his media platforms are strident campaigners against renewable energy.
However the grain of truth here is that for when there are many households with domestic solar and batteries on a local grid segment something like Tesla's V2G to intelligently manage voltage in that section of the gird is needed.
Reposting this which I originally posted in the main thread about rumours that Tesla is looking for a site for a factory in the UK:
Yes that is a possibility. Tesla building a big MegaPack battery and using it's utility license and their Autobidder to trade electricity. Don't need to make cars there at all!
Autobidder
Yes that is a possibility. Tesla building a big MegaPack battery and using it's utility license and their Autobidder to trade electricity. Don't need to make cars there at all!
Autobidder
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
UK will be 60% offshore wind before long. Gonna need a LOT of storage.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
This program is due to submit it's finding today. Certainly the solution could be summarized in one word.....Tesla.
Huge opportunity to scale storage manufacture in the US. You think there's room in any of these Covid Relief bills for 5 new Gigafactories in politically strategic locations? I'm thinking Western PA, rural Wisconsin, Michigan, Colorado....
Huge opportunity to scale storage manufacture in the US. You think there's room in any of these Covid Relief bills for 5 new Gigafactories in politically strategic locations? I'm thinking Western PA, rural Wisconsin, Michigan, Colorado....
Well, they'll be adding more storage soon. Kinda.
There's a 1.4GW HVDC link between Northern England and Norway expected to be operating from 2021. That's going to be hydro from Norway and wind from the UK being traded across the link.
There's also another 2 links, 1GW each being added between the UK and France. One through the Channel Tunnel, and another from Normandy to Hampshire
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
It'll be interesting to see how interlinked France/UK/Germany/Spain become as renewables scale. Gotta think France(eventually) is at a massive disadvantage trying to sell all that expensive nuclear supply. In 5-8 years UK will be selling tons of cheap excess offshore wind.
This link is controversial in Norway since it would increase the price of electricity for Norwegians. So the government has postponed the final decision on this until the end of 2020. If they voted on this today it probably would be stopped.
Source in Norwegian: Setter den omstridte NorthConnect-kabelen på vent
That's a different proposed connector.
The Wikipedia page for North Sea Link, which is already under construction, says "Not to be confused with Scotland-Norway interconnector.".
The interconnector you're writing about is from Peterhead in Scotland to Norway.
NorthConnect - Wikipedia
The one I'm referring to is the North Sea Link from Blyth in England:
North Sea Link - Wikipedia
The North Sea Link was expected to increase the price of Norwegian electricity by 0.26 euro cents/kWh, for the same reason, that it effectively makes the hydropower an export industry.
There's also a 1GW link being built from Norway to Germany.
(Here in Maine companies want to build a bigger connector to Quebec in Maine (part of the New England grid) so that they can sell the hydro to Massachusetts, which will pay the highest price for it. It's going to referendum. In principle it's a good idea to have more connectors, but I don't know whether we're getting a good deal from it. Maine has the cheapest electricity in New England.)
Battery isn't the only solution. We have some 'pumped hydro' here in Washgington state where excess power is used to pump water uphill - a gravity battery. I have seen similar ideas using concrete blocks and other ideas. Just different types of storage. The 'expert' energy minister is lying.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
Has anyone heard of Tesla moving to LFP for storage? It seems like an obvious choice, safer and much cheaper. It would be kind of nutty to use LFP in Chinese Model 3s and still use NMC for storage.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
I'd reeeeally like to see Tesla Energy branch out into other types of stationary storage. Not to ramp the R&D, but the execution at scale.
There are plenty of technologies that only "failed" due to someone other than Elon designing the manufacture and execution. This one had me so excited, then they built a production line that looked like this:
WTF kind of effort is that? How in god's name is that scale? China owns this company now, maybe they'll do it right.
As Tesla Energy gets really really big, it seems silly to me to rely on tech meant to be lightweight for transport. Maybe they're already diversified within their gameplan.
There are plenty of technologies that only "failed" due to someone other than Elon designing the manufacture and execution. This one had me so excited, then they built a production line that looked like this:
WTF kind of effort is that? How in god's name is that scale? China owns this company now, maybe they'll do it right.
As Tesla Energy gets really really big, it seems silly to me to rely on tech meant to be lightweight for transport. Maybe they're already diversified within their gameplan.
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