Tesla forced to open superchargers to unlock billions

[KJD]

No, when somebody needs your stall you should have moved your car before they get there. Why would it be other than this? What possible business is it of yours whether a stall that nobody needs is free?

BTW, while obviously this is just a few people, I am surprised that I don't hear from more people who dine or shop while supercharging, and find that it is annoying that their session is ending while doing so and you need to interrupt it and move the car. I mean, I do it and understand why it needs to be done, but that doesn't mean it's not annoying. I almost never charge without doing something while I charge. And I know I am not alone, I only rarely see people sitting waiting in the car while charging. It's annoying that Tesla doesn't give very accurate counts on charger use so you need to scurry back even when there are plenty of empty stalls sometimes.

Maybe you should order take out next time.

 

[bradtem]

Because those spaces are for charging, not for parking. You don't leave your car parked at a gas pump just because there are 11 other pumps open at the same station and nobody is showing up to buy gas. You move your car immediately after it's done filling. Deciding that you're going to fill up the tank with more gas and leave the car there longer = okay. Leaving the car parked at the pump after the pump stops because you're in the convenience store picking up stuff to buy = not okay.

Actually, I would say the majority of people in this situation go in and pay for their gas or buy snacks and come out without moving their car first. It is only rarely at a mostly empty station (back when I went to gas stations which I haven't done much of in the last few years) that I see somebody move their car out first. And it would be rude to demand them of it.

The stations are for charging. They are not "not for parking." They are for charging, to serve the needs of people charging cars. The needs of people charging cars include the a good charging experience. I am just a bit surprised at all the people who are focusing on some sort of rule system rather than actual good and harm. If nobody was unable to charge their car then nobody is harmed. You have no business dictating what people do beyond that.

I mean, I understand the origin of this. We've been frustrated at people ICEing spots, but that's for a reason -- that ends up with people not being able to charge. The ICE drivers are not tied to an account and a phone and a system that will bill them if they block somebody from charging, so they create a problem. But the Tesla driver has an app and is watching it and getting alerts from it.

Put it this way. Tesla currently lets you be in the stall after charging if it is less than 50% full. And I know lots of Tesla drivers do this. I have done this. I suspect almost all people reading this have done this. Perhaps you are somebody who, seeing your car approaching full, goes out to your car to watch it, and when the charge ends, within 10 seconds you have it unplugged and you are driving out, even when you are the only car in the station. Maybe you're that driver. You're rare.

But most of us aren't because when the station is empty, we know there can't be any harm. And Tesla feels there isn't any harm if the station is 50% empty. I just point out you can also assure there will be no harm, just as well as current idle fees do, at a threshold higher than 50%. People keep making this statement that the spaces are not for parking. But why are they OK for parking when the station is empty, and not OK when it is 51%?

 

[Dennisis]

Sometime, probably soon, there will be non-Tesla's charging in the same spots we're all used to having to ourselves. The more convoluted the charing rules get the more people will get confused and do whatever. We've probably all seen Tesla's not even plugged in at chargers, much less done charging, because some think it's OK just because they own a Tesla. How much worse when these others try to figure out the protocols? KISS is the best policy for the next few years IMO.

 

[bradtem]

Sometime, probably soon, there will be non-Tesla's charging in the same spots we're all used to having to ourselves. The more convoluted the charing rules get the more people will get confused and do whatever. We've probably all seen Tesla's not even plugged in at chargers, much less done charging, because some think it's OK just because they own a Tesla. How much worse when these others try to figure out the protocols? KISS is the best policy for the next few years IMO.

Nothing about this would change how somebody who is just not plugged in is going to do. To fix that you would need Tesla to notice somebody doing that -- there are a number of ways they could, including bluetooth in the charging stall to detect a car there, and of course if you change, unplug and don't move.

If we can't trust other cars (though they will usually have the app) then bump the fees is all you can do. You can give them stricter rules. But frankly, if I am charging at a stall with idle fees, I am going to use the app because I don't want to pay the fees, and so I will move the car before I get charged the fees.

Again, why do we give people a 5 minute grace period before the fees start? Why not just 30 seconds -- if you are watching carefully and get back in time you don't need more. Why allow no fees when the station is half empty? This philosophy that several of you seem to espouse just isn't how it works, not how Tesla does it. I think it's mostly set to a 50% limit because V2 stations, which were all you had back then, are slower when more than half full and you can't get an upaired stall. That's over at v3.

 

[STS-134]

Nothing about this would change how somebody who is just not plugged in is going to do. To fix that you would need Tesla to notice somebody doing that -- there are a number of ways they could, including bluetooth in the charging stall to detect a car there, and of course if you change, unplug and don't move.

If we can't trust other cars (though they will usually have the app) then bump the fees is all you can do. You can give them stricter rules. But frankly, if I am charging at a stall with idle fees, I am going to use the app because I don't want to pay the fees, and so I will move the car before I get charged the fees.

Again, why do we give people a 5 minute grace period before the fees start? Why not just 30 seconds -- if you are watching carefully and get back in time you don't need more. Why allow no fees when the station is half empty? This philosophy that several of you seem to espouse just isn't how it works, not how Tesla does it. I think it's mostly set to a 50% limit because V2 stations, which were all you had back then, are slower when more than half full and you can't get an upaired stall. That's over at v3.

I thought they did a study on UI lag on computers and they found that inconsistent response time (even if better, on average) was more annoying to users than UI lag that is consistently slower. In other words, people would rather know exactly what experience they're going to get (like always having a half second delay after typing a character) than an experience that is better on average but can be worse on occasion, i.e. most of the time the characters show up almost instantaneously but rarely there's a 1.5 second delay. Not knowing exactly when you have to move your car and having to constantly check the app is kind of more annoying than just knowing exactly what you have to do and when you have to do it and planning around that fact. It's not like your car doesn't tell you when it's going to be done within a minute of when it starts charging...

 

[scottf200]

people who dine or shop while supercharging, and find that it is annoying that their session is ending while doing so and you need to interrupt it and move the car.

If I'm eating away from my car while supercharging and get notified that my charging limit is almost reached and idle charges will start ...
then I use the phone app to bump up the charge limit X% so I can finish eating and get back to my car. I don't run to my car temporarily to move it as I will just wrap up my meal and get there soon.

 

[bradtem]

I thought they did a study on UI lag on computers and they found that inconsistent response time (even if better, on average) was more annoying to users than UI lag that is consistently slower. In other words, people would rather know exactly what experience they're going to get (like always having a half second delay after typing a character) than an experience that is better on average but can be worse on occasion, i.e. most of the time the characters show up almost instantaneously but rarely there's a 1.5 second delay. Not knowing exactly when you have to move your car and having to constantly check the app is kind of more annoying than just knowing exactly what you have to do and when you have to do it and planning around that fact. It's not like your car doesn't tell you when it's going to be done within a minute of when it starts charging...

I don't think these two compare. You can always come back in a fixed time, nothing prevents that. However, I find the times are much more variable than you describe here. The car's prediction for charge time is often off by quite a bit. This can be because of V2 chargers and the sharing at V3 chargers, because of temperature and it seems other factors.

I want a predictable experience to be sure, the that experience is "You will have at least 30 minutes, and we'll warn you after that in time for you to finish up and walk back to your car to move it." That's a predictable experience for me. Of course, I can always just come back in 30 minutes and wait if I really need a precise experience.

I often find that of course there are at least three times. There's "enough charge to get to next destination" and "reaching a charge target" and "reaching a higher target you set because you needed more time for your task."

Some people are in a rush and go as soon as they can make the next charger. I almost never do that. Indeed, even if I am driving that way I tend to add a bit of buffer because I like to change plans. But most often, I have decided on my charging task, and I have a charging task 98% of the time, and then I don't want to have to come back until I have done the task. If I decided on a sit down meal, and the charger is not full, I want to finish my meal. It is no business of anybody else's what I do as long as I don't block a full station, and I never have.

 

[Dennisis]

I may be wrong but I think you’re in the minority. Most people use superchargers when traveling and don’t usually have sit down meals or tasks to complete while charging.

 

[bradtem]

I may be wrong but I think you’re in the minority. Most people use superchargers when traveling and don’t usually have sit down meals or tasks to complete while charging.

I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. I don't use superchargers in my own city, but I have used scores of them on road trips, and the great majority of the cars at them are empty. The people have gone off to do something. They are not anywhere near the car. And it's not just to pee or stroll, because those people would be back in the car for 3/4 of those drivers. And they aren't. I mean I sometimes see people just sitting in their car, but it's not a majority in in fact it's a tiny fraction -- so I am curious what makes you form your opposite opinion? I think the locals who supercharge in their own city because they don't have charging at home might be more likely to sit in or around the car, perhaps?

For me, it's a must. I view waiting for charging as a failure. Right now I have to work too hard at it, but >95% of the time on road trips I have another task during charging. It's why I can say to gasoline drivers curious about EVs "I have spent less time waiting for charging in my Tesla than I would have spent waiting to pump gas before." It might be a slight fib because the EV world is still young, but it's not far off, and it will become even stronger with time, and it's how it should be. These gasoline drivers are all "I don't want an EV, I can't imagine dealing with how long it takes to charge." They can't grasp how it could take less time to charge the EV than it used to take pumping gas, but if you do it as I do it, it does. Today that involves compromises on food choice that I hope will go away in the future.

 

[wws]

I thought they did a study on UI lag on computers and they found that inconsistent response time (even if better, on average) was more annoying to users than UI lag that is consistently slower. In other words, people would rather know exactly what experience they're going to get (like always having a half second delay after typing a character) than an experience that is better on average but can be worse on occasion, i.e. most of the time the characters show up almost instantaneously but rarely there's a 1.5 second delay. Not knowing exactly when you have to move your car and having to constantly check the app is kind of more annoying than just knowing exactly what you have to do and when you have to do it and planning around that fact. It's not like your car doesn't tell you when it's going to be done within a minute of when it starts charging...

This was a common thought that sometimes infected mainframe-based timesharing systems of the 1970s. But it was proven very wrong. (I could cite one specific example where I removed a manufacturer imposed 1.5 second delay at our site - much to everyone's happiness. Control Data Corporation KRONOS operating system running the TELEX timesharing subsystem...)

 

[Dennisis]

I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. I don't use superchargers in my own city, but I have used scores of them on road trips, and the great majority of the cars at them are empty. The people have gone off to do something. They are not anywhere near the car. And it's not just to pee or stroll, because those people would be back in the car for 3/4 of those drivers. And they aren't. I mean I sometimes see people just sitting in their car, but it's not a majority in in fact it's a tiny fraction -- so I am curious what makes you form your opposite opinion? I think the locals who supercharge in their own city because they don't have charging at home might be more likely to sit in or around the car, perhaps?

For me, it's a must. I view waiting for charging as a failure. Right now I have to work too hard at it, but >95% of the time on road trips I have another task during charging. It's why I can say to gasoline drivers curious about EVs "I have spent less time waiting for charging in my Tesla than I would have spent waiting to pump gas before." It might be a slight fib because the EV world is still young, but it's not far off, and it will become even stronger with time, and it's how it should be. These gasoline drivers are all "I don't want an EV, I can't imagine dealing with how long it takes to charge." They can't grasp how it could take less time to charge the EV than it used to take pumping gas, but if you do it as I do it, it does. Today that involves compromises on food choice that I hope will go away in the future.

Charging generally takes 25 minutes or so on average. Aside from a bathroom and snack break what else do you accomplish?

 

[zoomer0056]

when they will inconvenience nobody

This statement ignores the fact that the SC occupancy is shown on the map.

 

[bradtem]

This statement ignores the fact that the SC occupancy is shown on the map.

Yes, as I said a couple of messages ago, Tesla should definitely change the map to show (in addition if desired) not the current occupancy, but the expected occupancy when I get there. As I wrote, Tesla knows when every car will finish charging. It knows when every car navigating to supercharger will get there. There is noise in that data due to detours, charge length extensions and people paying idle fees and continuing to occupy the stall, but they understand the statistics on that. They know a great deal more than what they show, and should show it. If I am an hour from the charger, the current occupancy is not what interests me.

But that's beside the point. I am saying you want an idle fee policy that strongly discourages people leaving their car in a stall when somebody else needs that stall. You don't need a policy that does it when nobody else needs the stall, that's just some thing that people keep asserting is true, but it's not true. The question is, does your idle fee policy work to meet the goal that nobody blocks a stall somebody needs? If you think that people will cut it close to the wire and thus end up blocking people more, you raise the fee until they stop doing that. Or you make the warning earlier. Today it's 50 cents to $1/minute, and it happens at 50% full. I'm pretty sure you can do a lot better than that. Today there is no specific warning that the station is going to fill up soon, which would also help a lot, there is just the warning your charge is about to be done.

 

[MP3Mike]

It knows when every car navigating to supercharger will get there.

Not true. I will often navigate to a Supercharger, but not go directly. Sometimes I even start off heading the wrong direction to do what I want to do and give the car long enough to precondition.

Other times I won't navigate to a Supercharger at all. Sometimes because I made a last minute decision to charge other times because I want slower charging.

And it will only get worse once Tesla opens Superchargers to non-Teslas, as they will have no visibility to who is coming to a Supercharger, what their state of charge is, or how much they might need/want to charge.

But that's beside the point. I am saying you want an idle fee policy that strongly discourages people leaving their car in a stall when somebody else needs that stall. You don't need a policy that does it when nobody else needs the stall, that's just some thing that people keep asserting is true, but it's not true.

I still say it would be best to have a consistent policy. (i.e. It should apply even if you are the only vehicle there.)

And if Telsa does open any NEVI compliant stalls they have to support people using other charging networks, and possibly no app at all. So there would be no way for Tesla to send them a notification.

 

[zoomer0056]

Yes, as I said a couple of messages ago, Tesla should definitely change the map to show (in addition if desired) not the current occupancy, but the expected occupancy when I get there. As I wrote, Tesla knows when every car will finish charging. It knows when every car navigating to supercharger will get there. There is noise in that data due to detours, charge length extensions and people paying idle fees and continuing to occupy the stall, but they understand the statistics on that. They know a great deal more than what they show, and should show it. If I am an hour from the charger, the current occupancy is not what interests me.

But that's beside the point. I am saying you want an idle fee policy that strongly discourages people leaving their car in a stall when somebody else needs that stall. You don't need a policy that does it when nobody else needs the stall, that's just some thing that people keep asserting is true, but it's not true. The question is, does your idle fee policy work to meet the goal that nobody blocks a stall somebody needs? If you think that people will cut it close to the wire and thus end up blocking people more, you raise the fee until they stop doing that. Or you make the warning earlier. Today it's 50 cents to $1/minute, and it happens at 50% full. I'm pretty sure you can do a lot better than that. Today there is no specific warning that the station is going to fill up soon, which would also help a lot, there is just the warning your charge is about to be done.

I say that approach is way too complicated.

 

[bradtem]

I say that approach is way too complicated.

You would not see the complexity, so why would you care about how much coding it was for Tesla's team?

For the user it would be much simpler than today's approach. Your app tells you when to go move your car to avoid idle fees. If you obey it you don't pay idle fees. Why is that complex? Today, you need to go into a different part of the app to see if the station is getting full, or leave your meal early if you can't be sure. That's much more hassle.

 

[STS-134]

And if Telsa does open any NEVI compliant stalls they have to support people using other charging networks, and possibly no app at all. So there would be no way for Tesla to send them a notification.

Monetary penalty (higher price per kWh) for not using the app, not allowing the app to track your position via GPS, and not notifying Tesla in advance would keep this behavior to a minimum.

I say that approach is way too complicated.

It's not only complicated, but it's also going to annoy people. People will complain that they arrived when the stalls were mostly empty and expected to be able to leave the car there when it was done, but then a lot of people showed up at once and they had to stop eating and rush out to move their cars to avoid idle fees. So in a way, it's even worse than the current policy because it introduces external factors that can cause unexpected changes.

 

[bradtem]

Not true. I will often navigate to a Supercharger, but not go directly. Sometimes I even start off heading the wrong direction to do what I want to do and give the car long enough to precondition.

Other times I won't navigate to a Supercharger at all. Sometimes because I made a last minute decision to charge other times because I want slower charging.

Yes, I described that in my message -- you may want to reread it. The knowledge isn't perfect, but it's good, and Tesla also knows the probability of all the events that would introduce error.

And it will only get worse once Tesla opens Superchargers to non-Teslas, as they will have no visibility to who is coming to a Supercharger, what their state of charge is, or how much they might need/want to charge.

If those people decide not to use "navigate to supercharger" on their Tesla app, they won't get as good service. It won't know their SoC. Do other cars not offer preconditioning to speed up charging? I suspect they will in the future, if not. However, only 10% of Tesla stalls are currently planned to support CCS, and since only 30% of EVs are CCS (or less) I expect them to always be a small problem. So you figure out the variation and account for it. It just means you aren't perfect, you warn people to come move their car a little sooner than you absolutely need to with perfect info. Tesla worries about it, you don't. You just obey the app -- it says time to move your car, you go move it. (Today it uses a very stupid algorithm to tell you when to move it and you have to jump through hoops to figure out the truth. I just want that smarter prediction and policies to go with it.)

I still say it would be best to have a consistent policy. (i.e. It should apply even if you are the only vehicle there.)

OK, so now I have your view. You think that when I was charging at Baker like this, I should move my car as soon as it's full or pay idle fees. Sorry, but we're just going to disagree about that. In the evening at this station it is a 10-15 minute walk to the food.

At least this stall design can support many different cars with the Tesla cord length!

 

[STS-134]

OK, so now I have your view. You think that when I was charging at Baker like this, I should move my car as soon as it's full or pay idle fees. Sorry, but we're just going to disagree about that. In the evening at this station it is a 10-15 minute walk to the food.

At least this stall design can support many different cars with the Tesla cord length!

Tesla screwed up. Instead of 40 stalls next to DQ, they should have built some near DQ, some near Taco Bell, some near Burger King/Denny's/Arby's, etc. It's hard for me to imagine a situation where 40 cars worth of people all want to get refreshments at DQ at the same time and nobody wants to go to the other restaurants. In fact, looking at the inside of that restaurant on Google Maps, I don't think it can even serve that many people at the same time, so the parking lot of SC stalls is way too big for the facilities at that location.

 

[Zer0t]

Open the SC network but discriminate and discourage use. All inclusive ... for some. There are a lot of Karens who'll be dissatisfied.

Discriminate? I'm trying to figure out how they make it a profitable venture and keep the stalls turning over so it works for anyone. If you're going to have many more EVs, you need to discourage dwelling unnecessarily. You incorrectly read my mind as if I was against this.

The differential rate is how all charging companies work. If you buy a tesla you basically get the membership, thus lower rate, because they are making money having sold the cars. Paying for the same rate is tantamount to the fee paid to EA for a lower rate.