Tesla forced to open superchargers to unlock billions

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Even in Canada a couple times this summer to Nova Scotia, I’d pull into the supercharger, plug in and go get something to eat while noticing people fidgeting with the CCS charger nearby and their non-Tesla. I’d come back out 20min later ready to go and they were STILL messing with it and on the phone with support.

When I went to Charlottetown, PE from Maine past summer in my Kona, it was 50kW CCS all the way. There was a pair of 150kW in Moncton (my car max 75kW), but they'd been broken for months. I'm sure the 150kW chargers get more use than the 50kW, but still it's sad.

 

[israndy]

Kinda surprising none of the OEMs have thought of putting a Tesla port as an option to CCS on their cars. Probably couldn't get anyone at Tesla on the phone to confirm that Tesla would accommodate them doing that. It's one thing to get the mechanicals for such a plug, it's another thing to start the session and actually be billed for the electricity.

Heck, that might be a good project. I'll add a Tesla port to my RV and see if I can get electricity from it the way I can with a J1772. Might be too much DC for my 12v battery though...

 

[texas_star_TM3]

If you don't already have a CCS adapter, don't bother. It's like they were all installed with grant money and the money for repairs wasn't discussed before the install happened. Shocking how many non-Tesla chargers I saw broken on my long roadtrip this weekend

yeah. even with a free CCS adapter I see zero use for me personally.... bothering with 4 stalls in the back of a Walmart parking lot - or - pull into a 24 stall installation and be in/out in no time... hard sell

 

[STS-134]

yeah. even with a free CCS adapter I see zero use for me personally.... bothering with 4 stalls in the back of a Walmart parking lot - or - pull into a 24 stall installation and be in/out in no time... hard sell

You're assuming that CCS chargers and superchargers are always near each other.

 

[bradtem]

yeah. even with a free CCS adapter I see zero use for me personally.... bothering with 4 stalls in the back of a Walmart parking lot - or - pull into a 24 stall installation and be in/out in no time... hard sell

It's not as bad as all that. You just are comparing to Tesla who did it right, and it's surprising how much better they did it. I explain the reasons in other articles.

The reason the difference is magnified so much is that today, you really need to charge. A failure at the charging station can mean major problems in your trip. In the gasoline world if a gas station is broken, there's another station 2 miles down the road. You will do fine. If a pump is broken people are not spending 40 minutes at the other pump while you wait for them.

So a charging station failure, especially at the smaller stations CCS providers build, it can be a major problem. If you don't know the station is reliable you simply can't depend on it, you must plan to use a different one. So unreliable can mean useless. Even if, most of the time it works.

I did a long trip away from SCs in British Columbia, using the CHAdeMO adapter. It generally worked. There was one time that I ran into a dead station at Mt. Robson park, and that meant I could not go into Jasper that night. (At the time there was no fast charging in Jasper, now there is an SC and other chargers.) I was very annoyed. But most of the trip worked.

 

[STS-134]

The reason the difference is magnified so much is that today, you really need to charge. A failure at the charging station can mean major problems in your trip. In the gasoline world if a gas station is broken, there's another station 2 miles down the road. You will do fine.

Most of the time. But a power outage in a rural town, even if it has 2 or 3 different gas stations, would have ICE car drivers stranded just as it would strand EV drivers. No gas gets pumped if the power is out.

Then there's situations like the lone gas station (San Ardo Liquor & Gas) in San Ardo, CA along US-101 or the Kirkwood gas station along CA-88. Both of these are the only pumps along the road for approximately 50 miles, being located about halfway between the other two stations. And both are places where I got into trouble being low on fuel and had to pay their insane markups to make sure I didn't run out of gas. If these stations had been out of order, well, I would have been screwed. And you can't exactly argue that US-101 through the Salinas Valley isn't a well traveled route.

 

[bradtem]

Most of the time. But a power outage in a rural town, even if it has 2 or 3 different gas stations, would have ICE car drivers stranded just as it would strand EV drivers. No gas gets pumped if the power is out.

Then there's situations like the lone gas station (San Ardo Liquor & Gas) in San Ardo, CA along US-101 or the Kirkwood gas station along CA-88. Both of these are the only pumps along the road for approximately 50 miles, being located about halfway between the other two stations. And both are places where I got into trouble being low on fuel and had to pay their insane markups to make sure I didn't run out of gas. If these stations had been out of order, well, I would have been screwed. And you can't exactly argue that US-101 through the Salinas Valley isn't a well traveled route.

Yes, there can be problems at gas stations, but let's be real here -- the odds of this are vastly lower. On the other hand, I have definitely arrived at chargers where, if the charger didn't work I would be screwed. At best forced to find level 2 (if available) to wait an hour and get to another fast charger, and at worst stranded for the night. I have arrived at chargers in this state of risk often. The gas station risk is minor and this is why people are so much more upset at these failures.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

So a charging station failure, especially at the smaller stations CCS providers build, it can be a major problem. If you don't know the station is reliable you simply can't depend on it, you must plan to use a different one. So unreliable can mean useless. Even if, most of the time it works.

Not necessarily useless, but it can mean hedging, and hedging means shorter legs with higher SoC.
I drove my Kona to Charlottetown, PE and back via NB-1 with CCS all the way, but because each site is a single DCFC I always stopped at the charger 1 before I needed to in case it was not working or was in use.

Had I been able to be completely confident in access to the chargers I'd have been able to eliminate a stop and I'd have arrived with a lower state of charge.

 

[STS-134]

Yes, there can be problems at gas stations, but let's be real here -- the odds of this are vastly lower. On the other hand, I have definitely arrived at chargers where, if the charger didn't work I would be screwed. At best forced to find level 2 (if available) to wait an hour and get to another fast charger, and at worst stranded for the night. I have arrived at chargers in this state of risk often. The gas station risk is minor and this is why people are so much more upset at these failures.

I dunno, I would have been pretty upset if those stations had been out of commission. The reason I was not upset (except at getting gouged for a few gallons of gas and having to stop again where the price was more reasonable) was that the pumps were working. And despite the fact that EV charging stations seem to go down more often than gas pumps, the amount of information I can get on the operational status of an EV charger is better than the amount of information I can get about gas pumps. There's no San Ardo Liquor & Gas app that tells you if the pumps there are working, for example.

 

[bradtem]

I dunno, I would have been pretty upset if those stations had been out of commission. The reason I was not upset (except at getting gouged for a few gallons of gas and having to stop again where the price was more reasonable) was that the pumps were working. And despite the fact that EV charging stations seem to go down more often than gas pumps, the amount of information I can get on the operational status of an EV charger is better than the amount of information I can get about gas pumps. There's no San Ardo Liquor & Gas app that tells you if the pumps there are working, for example.

Yes, but with gasoline, AAA or other emergency road service will come with a couple gallons of gas for you. AAA is expensive but your car insurance probably provides this for less. There are a few service out there trying to bring portable electric charge, but they are rare and it is not fast. Or they tow you to a charger. Anyway, are you trying to make the argument that gas station failure is an equivalent or worse problem to worry about than electric charger failure? I would say it is 1/100th the problem, which is the key point that it's vastly less, and why would we discuss about the rare ways it can happen?

 

[zoomer0056]

Yes, but with gasoline, AAA or other emergency road service will come with a couple gallons of gas for you. AAA is expensive but your car insurance probably provides this for less. There are a few service out there trying to bring portable electric charge, but they are rare and it is not fast. Or they tow you to a charger. Anyway, are you trying to make the argument that gas station failure is an equivalent or worse problem to worry about than electric charger failure? I would say it is 1/100th the problem, which is the key point that it's vastly less, and why would we discuss about the rare ways it can happen?

Just one rare instance here that just happened.

 

[bradtem]

Just one rare instance here that just happened. View attachment 909839

Sure, but once again, are you trying to argue that gasoline drivers regularly sit in fear that they may arrive at a gas station to find it not working or empty, leaving them stranded? I know that EV drivers (of CCS/CdM cars) fear this, and they check plugshare to make sure a station is reliable and think of backup plans.

Are you saying you think gasoline drivers check databases before going to gas stations? That they live in the same sort of fear of this? That they live in anything remotely near the fear of this? If you are not arguing that, just what is the point you're making? Nobody has said gas stations or the gas distribution system never fail, I think. The issue at hand was how EV drivers are more sensitive to the potential failure of fast charging stations -- much more so. Even if the gas drivers should be afraid, they are not as far as I can tell.

 

[STS-134]

Yes, but with gasoline, AAA or other emergency road service will come with a couple gallons of gas for you. AAA is expensive but your car insurance probably provides this for less.

AAA is not quick though. I've run out of gas before (long story short it was a crappy rental car that gave me only 25-30 miles of warning before the tank ran dry and I shouldn't have even been driving that POS in the first place and wouldn't have been if a guy who wasn't paying attention didn't total my car). Those idiots took over 40 minutes to show up with gas.

I took that car back to the rental company the next day and told them to give me another one because "I don't want to even look at that piece of junk anymore." It was a Jeep Compass.

There are a few service out there trying to bring portable electric charge, but they are rare and it is not fast. Or they tow you to a charger. Anyway, are you trying to make the argument that gas station failure is an equivalent or worse problem to worry about than electric charger failure? I would say it is 1/100th the problem, which is the key point that it's vastly less, and why would we discuss about the rare ways it can happen?

I don't worry about charger failure any more than I worry about gas stations being down. Along I-5 and I-80, there are plenty of backup sites and even if I roll into one site with 4% SoC, there is a low end buffer below 0% that I can use. And there is likely L2 charging somewhere that can get me just enough juice to make it to the next charger. Worst case if heading up into the Sierra then turn around and go back downhill to charge.

 

[threeputts]

There are few tasks that fit 15 minutes -- it's too long for a bathroom break,

Give it a few years.

 

[electracity]

Not necessarily useless, but it can mean hedging, and hedging means shorter legs with higher SoC.
I drove my Kona to Charlottetown, PE and back via NB-1 with CCS all the way, but because each site is a single DCFC I always stopped at the charger 1 before I needed to in case it was not working or was in use.

Had I been able to be completely confident in access to the chargers I'd have been able to eliminate a stop and I'd have arrived with a lower state of charge.

And/or pay for more range. Going back five years or so Elon was on a "large batteries not needed " kick. That's gone away as some significant percent of EV buyers really do need and will pay for more battery.

I always plan a backup, especially traveling away from the interstate. That often means using a higher SOC. I would pay for a 400+ range model Y without hesitation.

 

[slyderz3]

Sounds like Teslas need a way to unplug themselves, then summon themselves to a parking spot across from the charger…no more idle fees. Or have 2 spots that can reach each charger and the charger disconnects and retracts when one car reaches target charge. Other person in opposite spot can start and you have ~30 minutes to move before fees start. Lots of options, hopefully Tesla will be the one continuing to innovate to deal with these problems that will come (or be exasperated) with shared chargers.

 

[Earl]

Sounds like Teslas need a way to unplug themselves, then summon themselves to a parking spot across from the charger…no more idle fees. Or have 2 spots that can reach each charger and the charger disconnects and retracts when one car reaches target charge. Other person in opposite spot can start and you have ~30 minutes to move before fees start.

I've always figured this 'low hanging fruit' of self supercharging is the indication that FSD is close to ready for prime time. Long before driving fast on public highways, under which Tesla has no control: If the autonomous driving capability can't work at slow speeds, in a closed in area (think Kettleman City, CA or Quartzite, AZ), built and controlled by Tesla, it definitely isn't ready to work in the wild outside world.
Given the anxiety having to back in causes so many drivers, there would be huge benefit if they just handle the driving and replace the charging with automatic plug/unplug (Tesla 'Snake') later. This capability could also be a huge cost value to rental car fleets.
Either the autonomy geeks are too arrogant (and/or naive) to solve this problem (which, unfortunately is all-too-often my experience with that breed of engineers) or the tech is a long way from being ready to take responsibility for safety.

 

[bradtem]

Sounds like Teslas need a way to unplug themselves, then summon themselves to a parking spot across from the charger…no more idle fees. Or have 2 spots that can reach each charger and the charger disconnects and retracts when one car reaches target charge. Other person in opposite spot can start and you have ~30 minutes to move before fees start. Lots of options, hopefully Tesla will be the one continuing to innovate to deal with these problems that will come (or be exasperated) with shared chargers.

The cars can't unplug themselves or plug themselves in, nor will they be able to for quite some time. But there is no need. Drivers are constantly coming and going. I am happy to unplug and plug in other cars on my way to and from the charger if other drivers will do the same for me when my car needs it. If you are not happy to do that, nobody would force you, but then you won't be able to avail yourself of such assistance, which would be silly of you.

 

[zoomer0056]

The cars can't unplug themselves or plug themselves in, nor will they be able to for quite some time.

Quite some time ... Elon says "in a couple of months, six months for sure."

 

[slyderz3]