"Tesla is a SCAM!!" - BMW Dealership

[wdolson]

What "wow" ?

Certainly combustion products worsen asthma, and turn sub-clinical disease morbid.

Growing up in Los Angeles, I had chronic allergies for 18 years. They cleared up when I moved away. I'm highly allergic to petrochemical smog. Getting a nosefull of diesel smog makes me gag. I can't help it.

Additionally the additives in unleaded gasoline are highly carcinogenic. Catalytic converters remove them, but only after the engine is fully up to temperature. That smell of exhaust you get around a car with a cold engine, you're inhaling a cocktail of toxins.

 

[Stirfelt]

On the other hand ..... I visited a Hyundai dealership (inquiring about a new Tuscon Hybrid). I visited with the salesman and told him I held a reservation for the M3.(I know that is not a direct competitor). He became very interested and asked how the reservation worked. His closing remark was "when you get it, stop by, I'd love to see it."

 

[Pkmmte]

Growing up in Los Angeles, I had chronic allergies for 18 years. They cleared up when I moved away. I'm highly allergic to petrochemical smog. Getting a nosefull of diesel smog makes me gag. I can't help it.

Additionally the additives in unleaded gasoline are highly carcinogenic. Catalytic converters remove them, but only after the engine is fully up to temperature. That smell of exhaust you get around a car with a cold engine, you're inhaling a cocktail of toxins.

I'm in the same situation as you, except I still live in Los Angeles. Although somewhat inconvenient, I tend to wear a pollution mask every time I want to drive with the windows down or when I know I'll be walking outside for a few hours in a busy area. It sucks.

 

[McRat]

Have your house and office air quality tested.

Even houseplants emit carcinogens.

You might be amazed that in most urban areas, you are safer breathing smog than office air.

 

[K-MTG]

I actually refrain from taking my Model X to the Acura dealer, the sales guy still thinks I want the new MDX and takes good care of me whenever I service my TLX and RDX...but now I am gonna have to figure out how to terminate my TLX lease early without telling him about the 3 so he doesn’t charge me a large fee

 

[ahkahn]

Funny... I had to buy a company car for one of my guys, and went to a Honda dealer in my Model S to take a look at a car... Everybody was more interested in coming out to check out the Model S rather than badmouthing Tesla... they were taking pics, etc. It was hilarious!

 

[wdolson]

I'm in the same situation as you, except I still live in Los Angeles. Although somewhat inconvenient, I tend to wear a pollution mask every time I want to drive with the windows down or when I know I'll be walking outside for a few hours in a busy area. It sucks.

I'm rarely in LA these days (I think 2010 was the last time I got down there, my family all moved away too), but from what I've heard the air quality there is better now than it was when I was a kid.

Seattle usually gets a few days of LA type smog a year and I would suffer when I lived there. Since moving to the Portland area I've only had to deal with really bad air quality once. This year we had wild fires up the Gorge (a small one 12 miles from here and a very big one about 30 miles from here), it snowed ash for a few days and I was miserable.

 

[david_42]

NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) for BMW vs MCA (nickel, cobalt, aluminum) Tesla. If you were planning on eating either, cobalt and nickel aren't very healthy for you! Manganese is critical for bones and aluminum is ignored.

One heck of a scam though:

Large luxury cars - U.S. sales by model 2016 | Statistic

Tesla Model S out sold BMW Series-7 by 2.5:1 in 2016. S + X ~ 50% of large super luxury cars.

 

[FlatSix911]

NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) for BMW vs MCA (nickel, cobalt, aluminum) Tesla. If you were planning on eating either, cobalt and nickel aren't very healthy for you! Manganese is critical for bones and aluminum is ignored.

One heck of a scam though: Large luxury cars - U.S. sales by model 2016 | Statistic

Tesla Model S out sold BMW Series-7 by 2.5:1 in 2016. S + X ~ 50% of large super luxury cars.

 

[wdolson]

NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) for BMW vs MCA (nickel, cobalt, aluminum) Tesla. If you were planning on eating either, cobalt and nickel aren't very healthy for you! Manganese is critical for bones and aluminum is ignored.

One heck of a scam though:

Large luxury cars - U.S. sales by model 2016 | Statistic

Tesla Model S out sold BMW Series-7 by 2.5:1 in 2016. S + X ~ 50% of large super luxury cars.

Actually Tesla's chemistry is called NCA, looks like a typo there. This covers most of the common Li-ion chemistries, but it's getting old now:
Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
Tesla adds some silicon into the mix now.

I don't know how other car makers are managing to get any decent energy density with NMC chemistry. I think it's possible a lot of them are quietly switching to NCA as they make battery packs larger. The traditional car makers went with NCA because it was the safest, but after a couple of fires back in 2013, there has only been one Tesla fire that wasn't due to a massive accident that would have set just about any ICE on fire, or at least ruptured the gas tank. The one fire was due to someone working on the car doing something wrong.

One-Off Bad Electrical Connection Caused Tesla Model S Fire in France » AutoGuide.com News

Overall the number of Tesla fires per mile driven is much lower than ICE and I think it's even lower than fires per mile driven for newer ICEs. (Should compare Tesla fires to ICE of about the same age, a 20 year old car is more likely to catch fire than a 2 year old car and the entire Tesla fleet is fairly young.)

So if Tesla is getting away with the more volatile chemistry, maybe the rest of the industry is following the leader, though they don't want to admit Tesla got anything right.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Actually Tesla's chemistry is called NCA, looks like a typo there. This covers most of the common Li-ion chemistries, but it's getting old now:
Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University
Tesla adds some silicon into the mix now.

The silicon was added to the anode, so it's not relevant. NMC and NCA refers to the cathode, while the anode is carbon (with some added silicon for Tesla).

I don't know how other car makers are managing to get any decent energy density with NMC chemistry. I think it's possible a lot of them are quietly switching to NCA as they make battery packs larger.

(...)

So if Tesla is getting away with the more volatile chemistry, maybe the rest of the industry is following the leader, though they don't want to admit Tesla got anything right.

NMC isn't *that* terrible compared to NCA for energy density. The competition is still using NMC, with resulting heavier battery packs. But some of what they lose in energy density on the chemistry-side, they get back on the battery pack level. Pouch/prismatic cells can be stacked together quite easily. Cylindrical cells are a bit more difficult to work with.

 

[wdolson]

The silicon was added to the anode, so it's not relevant. NMC and NCA refers to the cathode, while the anode is carbon (with some added silicon for Tesla).

True, but the silicon does affect the energy density of the cell, making the data in the article I posted a bit obsolete.

NMC isn't *that* terrible compared to NCA for energy density. The competition is still using NMC, with resulting heavier battery packs. But some of what they lose in energy density on the chemistry-side, they get back on the battery pack level. Pouch/prismatic cells can be stacked together quite easily. Cylindrical cells are a bit more difficult to work with.

Panasonic claims the 2170 cell has achieved 300 WH/.Kg (Tesla partner Panasonic says 30% energy density increase in lithium-ion batteries possible), that's the theoretical limit of the NCA chemistry. If they just got a 20% increase, that would make the 18650 cells in the 90 pack 250 WH/Kg, a 30% increase would make the 18650s 230 WH/Kg. That was the high end range for NCA chemistries in production at the time the Battery university article was written and 300 WH/Kg is the theoretical max for NCA chemistry.

NMC has a specific energy of 70-80 Wh/Kg. That's about 1/3 the current 18650 energy density and about 1/4 the 2170's density. A pack built with these cells probably needs less cooling than the NCA, but experience with Leafs in hot climates showed good cooling does help with cell life. The cylindrical shape of the Panasonic/Tesla cells leads to about 20% wasted space. Even if you filled those voids completely with batteries of a lower energy density like the NMC, you're never going to make a pack that comes close to the pack level energy density Tesla has.

 

[Yggdrasill]

True, but the silicon does affect the energy density of the cell, making the data in the article I posted a bit obsolete.

You can use a partial silicone anode together with an NMC cathode, just as you can use a partial silicone anode together with a NCA cathode. This isn't a difference between the two chemistries.

Panasonic claims the 2170 cell has achieved 300 WH/.Kg (Tesla partner Panasonic says 30% energy density increase in lithium-ion batteries possible), that's the theoretical limit of the NCA chemistry. If they just got a 20% increase, that would make the 18650 cells in the 90 pack 250 WH/Kg, a 30% increase would make the 18650s 230 WH/Kg. That was the high end range for NCA chemistries in production at the time the Battery university article was written and 300 WH/Kg is the theoretical max for NCA chemistry.

NMC has a specific energy of 70-80 Wh/Kg. That's about 1/3 the current 18650 energy density and about 1/4 the 2170's density. A pack built with these cells probably needs less cooling than the NCA, but experience with Leafs in hot climates showed good cooling does help with cell life. The cylindrical shape of the Panasonic/Tesla cells leads to about 20% wasted space. Even if you filled those voids completely with batteries of a lower energy density like the NMC, you're never going to make a pack that comes close to the pack level energy density Tesla has.

If you look at the Bolt pack, it has a weight of 440 kg and a capacity of something like 62 kWh. That's roughly 140 Wh/kg using NMC. The bare cells have probably closer to 200 Wh/kg. So, that's around 300 Wh/kg for NCA and 200 Wh/kg for NMC. It's less, sure, but it's still not horrible.

Another data point is the Tesla powerpack, which uses NMC. 1622 kg and 210 kWh. That's 130 Wh/kg, and that's even when it's optimized for durability, not capacity.

 

[AustinPowers]

Does BMW have dealerships in Germany (ie independent franchisees) or are they company owned? Most US dealerships, even imports like BMW are all independent franchises with commissioned sales people.

Afaik, there are no company owned car dealerships other than Tesla's. It is certainly not forbidden, but just not the German system.
Over here, employees in most branches of business tend to have a contract with a fixed wage as a base, and a bonus component depending on reaching annual goals, either company-wide or personal, again depending on the kind of job you have. I am sure sales people at car dealerships have a higher percentage of bonus versus fixed, but you will not find any that have just a commission-based salary.

I thought my Buick was quite a nice car. It wasn't as cushy as a Mercedes or a modern BMW, but it was a nice car and incredibly reliable. Here in the US we have a ratings company called JD Powers which looks at long term vehicle dependability and rates the nameplates based on quality issues over the first several years of ownership. Buick was top rated several years and they are still up near the top. For 2017 they are #4 behind Lexus, Porsche, and Toyota. BMW is #7. Definitely better than average.

My comment was more or less tongue-in-cheek.
Nevertheless, we also have ratings companies like JD Powers, plus ratings from the ADAC (German version of the AAA) as well as popular car magazines. And in general in those ratings, US cars tend to be at the bottom of the pile, so to speak, whereas German, Japanese and Korean cars usually occupy the Top Ten/Top Twenty spots.

A lot of the US is more spread out. My only road trip in my Model S was 1800 miles and that wasn't all that long by American standards. My SO's law partner drives 180 miles back and forth to Seattle several times a month.

I can certainly appreciate the value of SCs, especially in countries as vast as the US. I was just speaking for an average German customer, who for most of the year drives far less than 50 miles a day.

The low tech approach to the battery might contribute to longer battery life. I understand the engineering trade offs between large batteries and lots of individual cells. Heat is what kills batteries and Tesla is able to control the temperature in the battery pack very precisely with their cooling method and the smaller cells. When we have good solid state batteries, I expect Tesla will go with a larger cell size. It will be whatever size hits the sweet spot between cooling and capacity.

I am by no means an expert on battery tech, but we have a large battery company right next door, and Germany's version of a "Gigafactory" is currently being built in Kamenz, just a mile from where my parents-in-law live. From our as well as their local newspapers we often get articles about battery tech, and when they mention Tesla they always applaude their audacity for pushing the market, but they always state that the tech Tesla uses is very basic, so to speak. The gave details, but not being an engineering type of guy I must admit I didn't really understand where the advantages/disadvantages really came from. It sounded as though Tesla got around some of the "problems" by simply going for size over substance, if I may call it that. Didn't keep me from reserving a Model 3 though

 

[gambit48]

Growing up in Los Angeles, I had chronic allergies for 18 years. They cleared up when I moved away. I'm highly allergic to petrochemical smog. Getting a nosefull of diesel smog makes me gag. I can't help it.

Additionally the additives in unleaded gasoline are highly carcinogenic. Catalytic converters remove them, but only after the engine is fully up to temperature. That smell of exhaust you get around a car with a cold engine, you're inhaling a cocktail of toxins.

LOL, I got allergies AFTER I moved from LA. Grow up surrounded by palm trees, you never realize how much pollen other plants produce. Now I've got to take a daily allergy pill (or two or three) when seasonal allergies hit. Same thing with people who moved from the Bay Area (especially the concrete jungles like San Francisco). The plant life is killer.

 

[run-the-joules]

NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) for BMW vs MCA (nickel, cobalt, aluminum) Tesla. If you were planning on eating either, cobalt and nickel aren't very healthy for you! Manganese is critical for bones and aluminum is ignored.

One heck of a scam though:

Large luxury cars - U.S. sales by model 2016 | Statistic

Tesla Model S out sold BMW Series-7 by 2.5:1 in 2016. S + X ~ 50% of large super luxury cars.

The Model S is also much smaller and starts substantially cheaper than the 7 Series or the S Class. It frankly does not belong in the same category and any efforts to put it there are marketing spin.

The Model S is much more akin to a 5 series.

 

[Topher]

The cylindrical shape of the Panasonic/Tesla cells leads to about 20% wasted space.

Where did you get THAT figure? Cylindrical packing is around 88 to 90% efficient.

Thank you kindly.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Actually, they run on stored sunlight.

Who wudda thunk !?!!

Yep - fossil fuel (coal, oil, tar sands, natural gas) are stored sunshine. Just collected and stored millions of years ago. Today, the ocean is a giant solar collector - feeding tons of sea-life to be future fossil fuels. Mans pitiful attempts to collect a bit of energy is chump change compared to the ocean.
I do worry a bit - that the sun has been warming the turf for a long time, and solar panels intercept this energy and pipe it elsewhere. What happens in the solar shade? Do the lizards and microbes just perish? Is there any "cost" to intercepting this energy flow?

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

hope it doesn't blow.

kool - i see what you did there!!

 

[DR61]

I do worry a bit - that the sun has been warming the turf for a long time, and solar panels intercept this energy and pipe it elsewhere. What happens in the solar shade? Do the lizards and microbes just perish? Is there any "cost" to intercepting this energy flow?

There are many shade-tolerant species that should colonize land under solar panels.