Tesla Model X Cancellation

[Electroman]

If OP thinks Tesla is 'scam'ing people with deliberate poor business practices, then, why bother with Tesla anymore?

For all the stress Tesla has put him through, a nice German gas guzzler from a reputable, honest (?) auto dealer is the perfect antidote OP needs at this time. The dealer might even throw in nitrogen fill ups for a low cost of $50 per tire.

 

[Neech]

I'm on Auzie's side in thinking the OP is more upset that Tesla stood up to his threats. I would like to point out that the OP stated in post #64 that he is in the business of selling cars. That makes him one of "those" car dealers, who are known to stretch the truth, in order to make deals with his hundreds of customers. Tesla didn't lie to him, and others waiting on new seats did get them. I'm sorry, but the OP is not getting any sympathy from me. He tried to play a game of chicken and lost.

 

[NigelM]

Finally, I feel the urge to underline that I, like many others, agree the OP was combative and expressed his anger over the events with lawsuit threats included. I get no joy from that, nor is that what I would have done. His combative approach definitely made things worse for him. I think this is important to note, just so nobody thinks we were overlooking that. But then I see no joy in the absolute pummeling the OP is getting here either. I don't see how treating a persona like that could be good for us or the community.

It is like Apple fan sites where someone criticizes Apple beyond cosmetic complaints, it is brutal. It is a usual argument on sites like that that just because small criticism is allowed by said community, that it is proof large would too, but that doesn't really follow in reality. People who identify very strongly with the company/product, don't often take well if they feel the party the identify with being attacked (even when the "attack" would be justified) - and the level of criticism where that happens doesn't have to be very high either.
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I find these long dissections of what's wrong with our community getting tiresome. If you step back for a second and look you'll see that the OP was/is attempting to use TMC and its members for his own ends. This isn't someone who came to be part of the discussion, he came here to make his issue into our issue and leverage Tesla.

The OP claimed he didn't follow the forum but he did know exactly where he wanted to come to post his (bold, underlined, giant font) threats. There's no reason why folks here should hold hold hands and sing Kumbaya with someone who is trying to use them. Responses sometimes go over the top but, surprise, that primarily happens when OPs go over the top.

I sure as heck won't be throwing any stones.

So quit throwing rocks at the community please.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I find these long dissections of what's wrong with our community getting tiresome.

I'm sure you do, you often ignore my arguments and points - and answer something beside the point. You must be asleep at the wheel because of my text.

If you step back for a second and look you'll see that the OP was/is attempting to use TMC and its members for his own ends. This isn't someone who came to be part of the discussion, he came here to make his issue into our issue and leverage Tesla.

Of course he did. No way am I arguing the OP is a saint or a valuable member of a community. I don't care about the OP at all, as I've said. I just don't think what this thread is doing is good for the community and I don't think it is good for Tesla either. Too many people jumping to conclusions and potentially bad precedent being set. I'm not at all sure the OPs case warranted the reaction it got, be it from Tesla, but more importantly from the community. Some days this same effect will happen on someone we actually (should) care about. And it will alienate some people who shouldn't be alienated. That part of things I would like to see improve overall on TMC.

This is sometimes a brutal place. I remember they guy who said his Tesla filled with smoke or fog of some sort immediately getting the third degree. Maybe people really shouldn't feel so strongly about protecting Tesla all the time. It might lead to a healthier atmosphere. I get it that there is a past where the need to defend Tesla comes from, but past is past.

And I'm all for correcting things when needed. I'm just advocating for more balance.

For example, AnOutsider managed to disagree with what the OP said and did, yet remained very balanced and measured in his response. More of that, please.

The OP claimed he didn't follow the forum but he did know exactly where he wanted to come to post his (bold, underlined, giant font) threats. There's no reason why folks here should hold hold hands and sing Kumbaya with someone who is trying to use them. Responses sometimes go over the top but, surprise, that primarily happens when OPs go over the top.

No, but it would be swell if they were to stop and listen and try to see what the whole picture is before passing judgment and accusing the OP of stuff he didn't even do, say or clearly mean. Some days it feels like some people just read the bits they feel attack Tesla and then answer something random defensive stuff in return that amounts mostly to "stop yer yapping, I love my Tesla, so should you or leave".

 

[NigelM]

Throwing stones again? ;-)

No, but it would be swell if they were to stop and listen and try to see what the whole picture is before passing judgment and accusing the OP of stuff he didn't even do, say or clearly mean. Some days it feels like some people just read the bits they feel attack Tesla and then answer something random defensive stuff in return that amounts mostly to "stop yer yapping, I love my Tesla, so should you or leave".

Perhaps you're missing the point that the OP wasn't going to give us the whole picture.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Perhaps you're missing the point that the OP wasn't going to give us the whole picture. He wanted to use TMC members as leverage against Tesla.

I'm well aware we only have a partial picture. I'm not the one who has expressed definite statements about who is to blame, unlike too many others. For all I know, the OP performed actions that absolutely warranted this. But I don't know that. OP probably was looking for leverage, I don't disagree with that - a private person against a corporation, publicity is pretty much the only card to play if it gets to that. That, and lawyers. He already went through the P85+ by paying through the nose, that's the third option - to eat crow.

But even looking for leverage (be it publicity or lawyers) becomes quite a different matter if it were to turn out the OP indeed was wronged by overzealous sales people etc. and basically got the short end of a stick in the process, perhaps unbeknownst to Tesla higher-ups. Our "verdict" should change depending on what the whole truth is, but I see too many people not giving the whole truth any time of their day, merely going out on whatever is their bias - the token Tesla hater hating, lovers loving. Kudos to AnOutsider, for example, for doing better. Many others did better too, of course.

Now, if the whole truth is just that the OP was an a**, I'm all for a proportionate response.

All this said, I would think for everyone's sake, if the two parties could take a step back, let bygones be bygones on the Model S and find some terms for future Model X and shake hands on that, it would be best for all.

 

[AlMc]

I'm well aware we only have a partial picture. I'm not the one who has expressed definite statements about who is to blame, unlike too many others. For all I know, the OP performed actions that absolutely warranted this. But I don't know that. OP probably was looking for leverage, I don't disagree with that - a private person against a corporation, publicity is pretty much the only card to play if it gets to that. That, and lawyers. He already went through the P85+ by paying through the nose, that's the third option - to eat crow.

But even looking for leverage (be it publicity or lawyers) becomes quite a different matter if it were to turn out the OP indeed was wronged by overzealous sales people etc. and basically got the short end of a stick in the process, perhaps unbeknownst to Tesla higher-ups. Our "verdict" should change depending on what the whole truth is, but I see too many people not giving the whole truth any time of their day, merely going out on whatever is their bias - the token Tesla hater hating, lovers loving. Kudos to AnOutsider, for example, for doing better. Many others did better too, of course.

Now, if the whole truth is just that the OP was an a**, I'm all for a proportionate response.

All this said, I would think for everyone's sake, if the two parties could take a step back, let bygones be bygones on the Model S and find some terms for future Model X and shake hands on that, it would be best for all.

How about we all agree, for everyone's sake, to just let this thread rest in peace? The lack of further responses by all will signal agreement.

 

[dsm363]

I'm sure you do, you often ignore my arguments and points - and answer something beside the point. You must be asleep at the wheel because of my text.



Of course he did. No way am I arguing the OP is a saint or a valuable member of a community. I don't care about the OP at all, as I've said. I just don't think what this thread is doing is good for the community and I don't think it is good for Tesla either. Too many people jumping to conclusions and potentially bad precedent being set. I'm not at all sure the OPs case warranted the reaction it got, be it from Tesla, but more importantly from the community. Some days this same effect will happen on someone we actually (should) care about. And it will alienate some people who shouldn't be alienated. That part of things I would like to see improve overall on TMC.

This is sometimes a brutal place. I remember they guy who said his Tesla filled with smoke or fog of some sort immediately getting the third degree. Maybe people really shouldn't feel so strongly about protecting Tesla all the time. It might lead to a healthier atmosphere. I get it that there is a past where the need to defend Tesla comes from, but past is past.

And I'm all for correcting things when needed. I'm just advocating for more balance.

For example, AnOutsider managed to disagree with what the OP said and did, yet remained very balanced and measured in his response. More of that, please.



No, but it would be swell if they were to stop and listen and try to see what the whole picture is before passing judgment and accusing the OP of stuff he didn't even do, say or clearly mean. Some days it feels like some people just read the bits they feel attack Tesla and then answer something random defensive stuff in return that amounts mostly to "stop yer yapping, I love my Tesla, so should you or leave".

Well the guy who said his car filled with smoke left out his extensive aftermarket stereo modifications and only admitted to it after people called him on it right?

 

[dsm363]

How about we all agree, for everyone's sake, to just let this thread rest in peace? The lack of further responses by all will signal agreement.

Agree. This analysis is getting old.

 

[Krugerrand]

I just don't think what this thread is doing is good for the community and I don't think it is good for Tesla either.

Maybe stop adding to it and the drama then?

Too many people jumping to conclusions...

And yet you jump to your own conclusions - as an example your very next words: I'm not at all sure the OPs case warranted the reaction it got, be it from Tesla, but more importantly from the community. Some days this same effect will happen on someone we actually (should) care about. And it will alienate some people who shouldn't be alienated. That part of things I would like to see improve overall on TMC.

This is sometimes a brutal place.

So is real life. Oh, wait...

What you forgot to say, in the spirit of being 'balanced' is that sometimes this as a wonderful place. In fact, in the spirit of being 'balanced', we might even argue that the scale tips more toward the wonderful place than the brutal place suggesting that we need to 'balance' the scale and add some brutality.

I'm just advocating for more balance. For example, AnOutsider managed to disagree with what the OP said and did, yet remained very balanced and measured in his response. More of that, please.

First, this is an enthusiast's forum not the Tesla Balanced Discussions Forum. Secondly, this particular Internet forum is about as tame as one can come by given the size of the community and the site activity. You're barking up the wrong tree if I haven't already been clear.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Krugerrand: Worry not. I've said my piece and made my peace with the OPs topic, assuming nothing new surfaces. I don't know enough of it to say anything more anyway.

Well the guy who said his car filled with smoke left out his extensive aftermarket stereo modifications and only admitted to it after people called him on it right?

In the end, the fog/smoke thread fizzled out when it became possible Tesla had a TSB out on the topic, and it didn't seem to be retrofit related, but before that I think the poster got unnecessarily harsh doubt placed on him.

Before that, people quickly jumped to conclusions about the cause, because the cause could hardly be Tesla in their mind. The massive benefit of doubt Tesla enjoys here, in reverse, means people who cross that come under excessive doubt.

I think this may be partly because people are (too?) suspicious Tesla is under attack through trolling, as it sometimes certainly is. The flip-side it, it can be quite off-putting for those with genuine issues to discuss and comes out looking as overly defensive.

 

[EchoDelta]

Find it kinda funny you go on all forums talking about how mistreated you've been. And everywhere the majority says that you are being a D¶©&..

Being a D¶©&.. doesn't mean someone is not right, and the majority having an opinion doesn't make the opinion valid.
And the fact that your argument is fallacious doesn't mean its underlying hypothesis is wrong either

 

[FlasherZ]

Making legal demands and threatening legal action is a "nuclear option". As I noted above, you simply don't recover from that by saying "I'm sorry" or even reaching a stipulated agreement. The minute you invoke the legal threat, you've signaled the other party that you're not willing to negotiate in good faith and that you're making demands that must be met. Occasionally, you might be able to recover over the longer term, but you'll always be flagged as a troublemaker.

It's like calling someone a liar in business -- no matter how much you know that the guy across the table is spreading BS, it is never appropriate to call him a liar to his face. The most professional and appropriate way to handle it is to use data, and then the rest of the room will decide. Karma has never failed to nail someone like that, although it may take time.

I've also found over many years that the real story tends to reflect the professionalism of the parties involved. Someone who rushes to threaten legal action (Tesla lemon suit is a good example) will generally not have the story on his/her side.

 

[LetsGoFast]

OP bought a car, was unhappy that new features were added later and threatened a class action lawsuit and negotiated with Tesla to trade the car for a new one (possibly obtaining some concessions from Tesla to make the transaction work). OP then received a second car, refused delivery due to a relatively minor issue and proceeded to involve an attorney the very next day and demanded renumeration above and beyond what everyone else received and refused either two or three options proposed by Tesla to resolve the problem. Tesla concluded that they didn't want to sell him a third car based on their experiences with the first two.

I'm happy to agree that Tesla didn't handle the second car very well. Many of us have similar stories and I was generally supportive of those who complained the loudest about it here. I agree with many of the points raised in his email, especially that Tesla did a poor job of communicating. However, when one car delivery results in a threatened class action and a long negotiated exchange and the second car results in negotiations with an attorney and a variety of threatened actions because the seats were not as described for a period of time, I think it is entirely reasonable to decline to sell him a third car. Especially when it is all but certain that some people will find things to quibble about with the brand new model when it is released. It seems quite reasonable to imagine that the OP would be at the head of the line of people complaining and threatening (or actually filing) legal action.

I'm also very sceptical of the damages claimed and the ability to recover them. Whatever depreciation loss was experienced in the sale of his original car is probably not recoverable. Damages should be limited to those incurred by the failure of Tesla to inform him of the seat swap and whatever damages resulted from that specifically.

 

[dsm363]

Krugerrand: Worry not. I've said my piece and made my peace with the OPs topic, assuming nothing new surfaces. I don't know enough of it to say anything more anyway.



In the end, the fog/smoke thread fizzled out when it became possible Tesla had a TSB out on the topic, and it didn't seem to be retrofit related, but before that I think the poster got unnecessarily harsh doubt placed on him.

Before that, people quickly jumped to conclusions about the cause, because the cause could hardly be Tesla in their mind. The massive benefit of doubt Tesla enjoys here, in reverse, means people who cross that come under excessive doubt.

I think this may be partly because people are (too?) suspicious Tesla is under attack through trolling, as it sometimes certainly is. The flip-side it, it can be quite off-putting for those with genuine issues to discuss and comes out looking as overly defensive.

What is the TSB for smoke filling the car because of wiring? It died out because the guy probably found out he was at fault. Otherwise he surely would have come back to let everyone know.

 

[stopcrazypp]

What is the TSB for smoke filling the car because of wiring? It died out because the guy probably found out he was at fault. Otherwise he surely would have come back to let everyone know.

The TSBs mentioned addresses the buzzing/vibration of the compressor, but the cause of the white smoke is still unknown (and he appears to be the only one to have experience it).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...he-cabin/page7?p=920213&viewfull=1#post920213

 

[NigelM]

In the end, the fog/smoke thread fizzled out when it became possible Tesla had a TSB out on the topic, and it didn't seem to be retrofit related, but before that I think the poster got unnecessarily harsh doubt placed on him.

Before that, people quickly jumped to conclusions about the cause, because the cause could hardly be Tesla in their mind. The massive benefit of doubt Tesla enjoys here, in reverse, means people who cross that come under excessive doubt.

I think this may be partly because people are (too?) suspicious Tesla is under attack through trolling, as it sometimes certainly is. The flip-side it, it can be quite off-putting for those with genuine issues to discuss and comes out looking as overly defensive.

I thought you were going to stop throwing stones? ;-)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I thought you were going to stop throwing stones? ;-)

NigelM: No glass-house stones, I'm sure this has happened to me sometime as well somewhere in life when a bias takes over and I'm sure will happen again. We people tend to have rose-tinted glasses on when looking at stuff that matters to us. I try, but I am not immune.

The doubt in expressed in the fog case in my opinion (just my opinion of course), though, was excessive, no matter the outcome - considering the info available. Same with this particular thread. I think, frankly, it is telling that even now - discussing the "fog case" - there is opinion that the poster's silence must be because they found out they were in the wrong, and thus Tesla not at fault. I wonder what would it take for some to consider Tesla's "fault" as a possibility or at least the poster's innocence... I mean, cars break, it shouldn't be that hard to consider the possibility and even then it wouldn't even be that damning at all.

For some reason Tesla is a sacred animal at times, while every critical poster is a likely fake, fraud or at least at fault - to exaggerate a little, but not too much. There are many instances on enthusiast forums where the company/product of interest is given excessive benefit of doubt, while excessive doubt on critical posters has been placed in reverse. Unfortunately TMC is not immune to this. Keep reading and I'm sure you will notice the pattern eventually. Or maybe it changes over time for the better, that would be great.

As for the issues mentioned: We don't know what caused the fog. And we don't know what happened to the OP exactly in this thread. There is no harm in admitting that, even though it leaves open the possibility sometimes it might be Tesla's fault too. In the fog case, maybe it was the AC. It leaves open the possibility of opposite as well, naturally. Maybe it was the retrofits. Maybe it was both or neither. Maybe there was no fog. Given the limited amount of information, saying anything else definitively is jumping to conclusions prematurely - in my opinion, of course. Discussion of possibilities, likehoods and all that, now that is good of course, but you can see how some people stiffen up and/or shut up the moment the idea of being significantly critical towards Tesla is brought to the table. Discussion stops then and there, and a shouting contest begins.

There are also some haters that do this in reverse. That also is an unfortunate side effect. Not all the concern about trolling and hating is unwarranted. But I still think it shouldn't be the first thing that pops to mind and starts a third degree (let alone fires up the firing squad) when someone posts their controversial experiences.

Well now, even I think enough of this s**t. At least we can end on a note I think we both, NigelM and I, can agree on. At least until something new is brought to light and we can start the shouting contest again.

 

[bonnie]

I thought you were going to stop throwing stones? ;-)

The 'ignore' button turns out to be quite handy when people won't let things go & insist their worldview is correct.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Did I just write "but you can see how some people stiffen up and/or shut up the moment the idea of being significantly critical towards Tesla is brought to the table"?