Tesla Radar Speculation

[Mike1080i]

There are four documents pending release, the “Internal Photos,” “External Photos,” “Test Setup Photos” and “User Manual.” Likely just waiting for someone at the FCC to hit the approve for release button on their end.

Looks like Tesla requested the FCC to hold off the release until February 7.

"However, this device will not be marketed until Mid-January 2023. To avoid any unnecessary disclosure and competitive harm before our product launching, we would like to request above exhibits to be held for another 60 days until 2023-02-07."

source:
Short-term Confidentiality Extension Request Letter 11/22/2022

OET List Exhibits Report

 

[Mikecm1]

Looks like Tesla requested the FCC to hold off the release until February 7.

"However, this device will not be marketed until Mid-January 2023. To avoid any unnecessary disclosure and competitive harm before our product launching, we would like to request above exhibits to be held for another 60 days until 2023-02-07."

source:
Short-term Confidentiality Extension Request Letter 11/22/2022

OET List Exhibits Report

In other words, “we don’t want people to cancel their current orders because they found out a huge update is coming next month”.

 

[RoBoRaT]

In other words, “we don’t want people to cancel their current orders because they found out a huge update is coming next month”.

Oh shoot. Osborne is in effect.
Let me cancel this delivery.
$7500 tax credit and huge (HD radar) update here we come.

 

[thewishmaster]

Oh shoot. Osborne is in effect.
Let me cancel this delivery.
$7500 tax credit and huge (HD radar) update here we come.

Just wait till you find out what they decide to remove next

 

[jeremymc7]

For cars that have the (discontinued) radar installed and software deactivated will:

1. Will the new radar require different harness and bumper?
2. Tesla be swapping out the old radar unit with the new radar unit if mount compatible?
3. Will if make a difference if you purchased FSD or not?

All wait and see at this point.

But with the possibility of new cameras (and HW4 in general) as well it makes a difference to FSD owners if they will get the upgrade or if they will be considering selling current cars and swapping in a new one with latest HW.

 

[Mark II]

Just wait till you find out what they decide to remove next

+ the increased delay between order and delivery, as they tend to do with HW updates.

 

[scottf200]

Various sources indicate "HD" it is digital vs analog

Digital Versus Analog Radar - The traditional analog radar like old smokey used to use to hand out tickets operates by sending out radio waves, then measuring the reflected signal. If there's a difference in velocity between the radar unit and the object, there will be a Doppler shift in the reflected wave.
_ Digital radar uses a similar radio signal, but each transmitter sends out a 77-GHz signal with a unique digital code modulated on it that allows the receiver to distinguish each individual signal from among any other 77-GHz waves bouncing around the area. This technique, known as digital code modulation, allows the system to sense instantaneous position as well as velocity.
_ 30 times the resolution of traditional analog radar.

16x Resolution
Typical integrated analog radar chip solutions pair three transmitters with four receivers, but Uhnder's 4D digital-imaging radar chip features 12 transmitters and 16 receivers for
192 virtual radar channels, each capable of determining the speed and distance of an object in the distance. That vastly richer point cloud results in images with 16 times the resolution afforded by a standard analog radar unit.

4D Digital-Imaging Radar Is Coming to Cars—But What Is It?

It's coming this year, including to a new EV startup.

www.motortrend.com

--------------------- ------------------ -----------------------
CES 2022 INNOVATION AWARD PRODUCT
Magna ICON Digital Radar (appears to be uhnders too per their YT channel videos)

WHAT: 4D digital radar
INNOVATION: ICON 4D Radar is a software-defined digital imaging radar, achieving performance levels that open the door for the future of autonomous driving. Scanning the environment in four dimensions with 16 times better resolution and 30 times better contrast than analog, ICON Radar can see a stalled car inside a dark tunnel or detect a child running into traffic from behind a truck that a human driver is likely to miss.

Pace Awards - Magna International

WHAT: 4D digital radar INNOVATION: ICON 4D Radar is a software-defined digital imaging radar, achieving performance levels that open the door for the future of autonomous driving. Scanning the environment in four dimensions with 16 times better resolution and 30 times better contrast than...

www.autonews.com

“Analog radar uses frequency modulation,” Reddy tells us. “Phase modulation in digital provides interference robustness.”

Every radar has a quintillion unique code embedded into the signal. That means every signal sent from the unit is unique. Not only is the radar looking for the return signal, but also if the inbound signal has the unique code.

In an intersection with various cars, for example, cars have to now try to figure out which radar is theirs and which radar is from the opposing vehicles. With digital radar, that confusion is eliminated by the unique identifier.

There aren’t any sacrifices going to digital, either. We’re told that this new radar technology has a range of greater than 300 meters. In comparison, our long-term Model 3 has a 200 meter radar unit, and most analog radar units work from 150 to 200 meters.

Additionally, the digital radar has a range of 150 meters for pedestrian detection. Digital radar’s resolution allows it to pick up things never before distinguished by radar. For example, it can pick up a tire laying in the road and warn the driver. Magna’s U.S. offices are in Michigan and that’s totally a Michigan thing.

The Icon Radar can also pick up stopped vehicles inside a tunnel, a pedestrian beside a guardrail as two separate items, and safe pathways on a multilane highway.

Magna’s new Icon Radar technology dreams in digital - EV Pulse

Just a few years ago, having advanced driver safety technology was a luxury for the wealthy. Today, even a base Toyota Yaris comes with life saving technology based on cameras and radars. But what about those radars? How is that technology evolving? Magna developed a new type of radar that is...

www.evpulse.com

 

[THEbuz]

Okay…so what am I missing? TESLA already got rid of both “old radar” and USS, citing the importance of a visual FSD solution. Why now the sudden shift into this “new radar”? I thought TESLA said they didn’t need anything but visual cameras…???

Can someone drop a link to an article showing TESLA’s announcement/s on this? Thx

 

[Yelobird]

Okay…so what am I missing? TESLA already got rid of both “old radar” and USS, citing the importance of a visual FSD solution. Why now the sudden shift into this “new radar”? I thought TESLA said they didn’t need anything but visual cameras…???

Can someone drop a link to an article showing TESLA’s announcement/s on this? Thx

There is no announcement only Assumed Theory based on something Tesla will use for a product unnamed nor does it say automobile. It’s a click bate viral story.

 

[jeremymc7]

Okay…so what am I missing? TESLA already got rid of both “old radar” and USS, citing the importance of a visual FSD solution. Why now the sudden shift into this “new radar”? I thought TESLA said they didn’t need anything but visual cameras…???

Can someone drop a link to an article showing TESLA’s announcement/s on this? Thx

Only leak from FCC that was removed; after and letter from Tesla to them asking it be removed from public access until it’s launched early 2023.

 

[nvx1977]

Okay…so what am I missing? TESLA already got rid of both “old radar” and USS, citing the importance of a visual FSD solution. Why now the sudden shift into this “new radar”? I thought TESLA said they didn’t need anything but visual cameras…???

Can someone drop a link to an article showing TESLA’s announcement/s on this? Thx

When asked "What do you have to say for those who are stubborn on radars?," Musk replied:

"Only very high resolution radar is relevant"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1489841690601041924

Also, apparently Musk told Electrek the following in June 2022:

The probability of safety will be higher with pure vision than vision+radar, not lower. Vision has become so good that radar actually reduces signal/noise.

However, the CEO also added that Tesla might still use radar if it had a “very high-resolution radar”:

A very high resolution radar would be better than pure vision, but such a radar does not exist. I mean vision with high res radar would be better than pure vision.

source: Electrek

 

[kabin]

I doubt much has changed but in the past the FCC limited autonomous radar frequency ranges to only narrow bands around 24G, 47G, 60G, 77G, etc. On the positive it helps keep cost down. On the downside it limits design flexibility.

It would be interesting to know how Magna is doing 4D radar and what their shortcomings are.

 

[2101Guy]

Will the radar be used in any way at all to restore parking sensor functionality?

 

[scottf200]

I doubt much has changed but in the past the FCC limited autonomous radar frequency ranges to only narrow bands around 24G, 47G, 60G, 77G, etc. On the positive it helps keep cost down. On the downside it limits design flexibility.

It would be interesting to know how Magna is doing 4D radar and what their shortcomings are.

Some touched on here 13:10 (t=790). They talk about on-board processing to allow the customer (Tesla, Fisker, etc) customize how much data and resolution they want based with a bandwidth being one factor and customers ability to process the details being another. Q&A talks about these being OTA updatable as well.

 

[gtg465x]

Man, I really hope my 23 M3 with EAP about to be delivered has this new radar or can get retrofitted. Seems like there’s never the perfect time to buy. I bought now due to the $3750 credit, but now I’m reading about this HD radar possibly coming in January and a major redesign possibly coming in Q3 2023. I’m not going to cancel my order, though, because I feel like there is always a rumor of something better to come, and plus, sometimes major changes bring unwanted side effects (price increases, build quality issues, etc.).

 

[kabin]

Some touched on here 13:10 (t=790). They talk about on-board processing to allow the customer (Tesla, Fisker, etc) customize how much data and resolution they want based with a bandwidth being one factor and customers ability to process the details being another. Q&A talks about these being OTA updatable as well.

Nice. Sounds promising. He says they work within 77-81Ghz so that opens things up for digital encoding. Looks like they are primarily a sensor provider and may need to spend more time with scene processing and path planning.

Some of his comparisons to analog radar are marketing talking point folly like saying a semi truck only gives a single large radar return or bridges are insurmountable. But no there's question broader band digital encoding has benefits over narrow band analog radar given its ability to measure target depth versus an analog radar's range return or vision only for that matter.

 

[THEbuz]

There is no announcement only Assumed Theory based on something Tesla will use for a product unnamed nor does it say automobile. It’s a click bate viral story.

Ha-ha
Thanks for catching me up. I guess I was late to the prom.
I would be shocked if TESLA seemingly reversed course by adding more non-visual sensors (i.e. Not merely more cameras.)—even if it is a much higher frequency radar. I know some have surmised that the move away from USS is driven by economics and supply chain limitations and not merely by technology. Notwithstanding, Andrej Karpathy gave some great insights on the Lex Fridman Podcast about visual vs. sensors…

 

[Takaa]

Ha-ha
Thanks for catching me up. I guess I was late to the prom.
I would be shocked if TESLA seemingly reversed course by adding more non-visual sensors (i.e. Not merely more cameras.)—even if it is a much higher frequency radar. I know some have surmised that the move away from USS is driven by economics and supply chain limitations and not merely by technology. Notwithstanding, Andrej Karpathy gave some great insights on the Lex Fridman Podcast about visual vs. sensors…

There is far more to this story than "assumed theory" and there is no guess about it being automotive or not. The "HD Radar" itself popped up in the Tesla parts catalog for Model S/X several months ago with diagrams of it, on accident, and was removed almost immediately. It is a bumper mounted radar in the same place as the previous 10 year old radar being used.

Tesla said 2 months ago that USS would be removed from S/X in a few months, in 2023. They then said in the last few weeks that they did not want the documents pertaining to the very same HD radar that was leaked into the parts catalog to be released until January 2023 when it is "marketed" (hits the market.) If the HD radar was just a failed experiment that they were not going to bring to market, why extend confidentiality saying they were going to? Tesla would have been far better off just allowing the documents to release on schedule and having all of us say "The radar documents were from June, then they decided to go full Tesla Vision in September, they must have abandoned these plans."

 

[sagar_jcky]

Did some digging and found a harness listed in EPC for MY that most likely indicate a Continental advanced radar sensor - first attachment

I have a '23 MY that I took delivery recently. It's been parked in my garage without sentry mode on for a few days. I turned the sentry mode and did a thermal scan with a FLIR one and I saw left side (looking at the car from front) of the front bumper lighting up. Its to the left of where the license plate would go and kind of matches the shape of the bracket someone else posted on twitter. The picture I took is not that clear, but should show the hot spot.

My theory (and hope) is that '23 models have the radar and new cameras and potentially HW4 already. Tesla still have '22 inventory that they are tryin to clear before making this announcement.

 

[sagar_jcky]

If anyone has a '22 MY and can do a thermal scan, it would be useful to compare