Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[sublimejackman]

The Feds are at fault with the semantics, not CNN. “Recall” is still the word for it. I think everyone here is pretty much agreed that OTA should have its own term in the law, but it doesn’t yet.
The semantics of this have been discussed endlessly on the forum. The point with this one is larger though, than the typical minor OTA thing. This is a big limiter on our autopilot and a huge shift within the industry and regulation etc. I think at some point the feds, the judges, industry and lawyers etc are going to have to agree with Tesla’s main point on this stuff: The driver has a responsibility to keep their hands on the wheel and stay alert.
If not, there can be and are accidents even on the finest divided interstate in board daylight and perfect conditions.
If the feds and courts can’t agree on that, autopilot and even pretty basic lane keeping can’t really exist.

Recall is just the name of the regulatory process, a process Tesla was well aware of for years. An OTA update that addressed the NHTSA concerns coulda been sent out 2021 but Tesla didn't.

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged. More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

This is on Tesla.

 

[sublimejackman]

My experience (owning 2 Teslas for nearly 13 years total) says otherwise. Since Tesla doesn't own my cars, it would seem to be illegal for Tesla to modify them without my permission as owner.

Legally a recall is a voluntary action that takes place because manufacturers and distributors carry out their responsibility to protect the public health and well-being from products that present a risk of injury or gross deception or are otherwise defective. Statistics compiled by the NHTSA show that only about 70% of recalled vehicles are usually returned for a repair or complete recall when the word gets out. That still means, however, that 30% of vehicles on notice for a product recall are not returned by their owners.

I used to make this argument. But the reality is as long as you use their service (cell, maps, radio, etc...) you have to agree to their EULA which multiple federal courts have found to be binding (despite none of us actually reading them). If you rip out the antennas in your mirror and never connect to wifi/cell, then this is true. However, the second you authenticate with Tesla's servers, you are bound by the EULA. A EULA that unfortunately inculdes mandatory safety and security software updates (probably updates for anything they want, really).

 

[advocate8]

Recall is just the name of the regulatory process, a process Tesla was well aware of for years. An OTA update that addressed the NHTSA concerns coulda been sent out 2021 but Tesla didn't.

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged. More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

This is on Tesla.

Yah basically Im just saying I don’t need to hear any more about how an OTA isn’t a traditional recall, and blaming the media for that blah blah blah. It’s a worn-out discussion and no one here really disagrees the NHTSA wording lags the modern world.
The OP has posted a topic worthy of serious discussion and the “OTA isn’t a recall!” stuff is just clogging the bandwidth.

 

[MP3Mike]

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged. More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

You don't understand the data you are looking at:

1. It only indicates that an ADAS system was engaged at some point in the 30 seconds before the collision. 30 seconds is a long time when driving, we have no idea how many actually had ADAS engaged at the time of the collision.
2. The reason there are so many more reported for Tesla because they collect all of the data in real time, so they are required to report it. The other OEMs don't collect the data, so they have nothing to report. They only have to report it when they are made aware of it by customer complaints, police/NHTSA investigations, etc.

 

[sublimejackman]

Yah basically Im just saying I don’t need to hear any more about how an OTA isn’t a traditional recall, and blaming the media for that blah blah blah. It’s a worn-out discussion and no one here really disagrees the NHTSA wording lags the modern world.

It absolutely is a traditional recall, there is no other word we have right now. There was a safety issue brought to the NHTSA's attention. They investigated it and Tesla agreed to address it. What part of this isn't a recall? Because you don't have to drive to a repair shop? Doesn't make the situation any more or less unsafe until the issue is remediated. You can make up a new word, I guess, but the process would be the same

 

[HBean]

The recall letter talks about all versions of Autosteer. Do the older Tesla’s have Autosteer?

View attachment 998919

To me it seems impossible to not realize if Autosteer is engaged or when it disengages.

 

[sublimejackman]

You don't understand the data you are looking at:

1. It only indicates that an ADAS system was engaged at some point in the 30 seconds before the collision. 30 seconds is a long time when driving, we have no idea how many actually had ADAS engaged at the time of the collision.
2. The reason there are so many more reported for Tesla because they collect all of the data in real time, so they are required to report it. The other OEMs don't collect the data, so they have nothing to report. They only have to report it when they are made aware of it by customer complaints, police/NHTSA investigations, etc.

Oh I understand the data. Not all Tesla's report everytime, some are damaged too far or don't report or the mirror is damaged. My point still stands Tesla coulda acted years ago but didn't. Did they just think NHTSA was gonna go away? I've had 3 of these cars now and seen AP get better and worse over the years. Sometimes it acts in a very unsafe way and it almost certainly isn't ready for a winding 45mph road in the rain. People were always gonna die and regulations are just now tip toeing up to it a little. Not even banning it, just some slight regs since most people drive unsafe (the whole point of FSD) so in the mean time shouldn't there be SOME regulations?

 

[MP3Mike]

Oh I understand the data.

Then you wouldn't have made this claim:

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged.

If I disengage AP drive for 25 seconds, and floor it to ram the car in front of me, that would be included in the statistics, but AP was not engaged at the time of the collision and had no involvement in it.

Or this one:

More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

Because we have no idea how many collisions there were for other OEMs, because they don't even know. It could be thousands.

 

[wdolson]

Except Tesla doesn't claim it works everywhere (as it relates to AP), and Tesla already restricts where you can activate it (the steering wheel icon is not available).


That's false according to the NHTSA standing order submitted so far. They don't have the ability to instantly report to the manufacturer when a crash happens with ADAS on. The reports are done in much more roundabout ways (like police or owner reports). Calling 911 is a completely different thing. The issue is the ability to determine that ADAS was active in a crash and automatically report that to the automaker. Given the order, even if they can implement it, they most likely will not want to do so now (as another pointed out, ignorance is bliss).

It's not an explicit deciding factor, but the ease of implementation is frequently a cited factor in how recalls are implemented (see how the Bolt recall was done for example). It doesn't get much easier than an OTA.
There are plenty of cars with much laxer driver monitoring where people have done dangerous stunts, yet NHTSA does not call for a recall, an example being the Infiniti from years ago:

That guy is a terrifying idiot. Climbing into the backseat he could have disengaged the system and caused a multi-car accident. I don't want to share the road with someone trying to win a Darwin Award.

All vehicles from 2012+ (it's in the recall notice)

That's one thing I don't understand about this recall. AP1 hardware was introduced in late 2014. The cars built before then had no ability to do any kind of autosteer, so why are they included?

Agreed 100%. I also cover my camera. I have no intention of allowing the 20-somethings at Tesla to watch me whenever they want, regardless of what the official stance is from Tesla on these cameras. Additionally, I need AP on some non-highway roads that are technically not limited access but absolutely perfect for AP/autosteer in my usage. Losing those roads takes away a huge reason why I bought the car. I too will be ignoring all updates until I know exactly what's going on.

There was some news reporting a year or so back of people within Tesla swapping pictures taken from sentry mode cars. They had pictures of people taken in their garages in various states of undress, and I think a few other voyeuristic situations.

My car has AP1, but I don't use it much. On the rare occasion I get trapped in stop and go traffic, it's nice to let the car deal with it and I'll put the car on autopilot for stretches of open highway on road trips, but otherwise I drive the car myself.

I've been of the opinion that FSD without a driver on a wide scale was never going to happen. Regulators are too cautious about allowing cars to drive themselves. Because of this situation they are going to be even more skeptical of allowing Tesla to try it in the future.

Aircraft with the state of the art autopilots have been able to virtually fly themselves completely for years now, but there are fewer edge cases than with ground transportation. Commercial airliners still require two flight crew minimum. Airlines would love to reduce the crew down to one pilot even when some crashes have happened because one pilot did something stupid and the other pilot couldn't compensate, but regulators will never allow it.

 

[drtimhill]

OTA is correct. See the DOT letter that’s linked in the article.

I think the news here is, Tesla is going to limit the use of FSD.

No, they are just adding more nags, mostly to Autosteer (not FSD). And mostly this is around people using Autosteer where it was never intended to be used (city streets).

 

[drtimhill]

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged. More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

But, as has been discussed at length, this is more related to the fact that only Tesla actively monitors the car and records these statistics. Other makers simply do not have to the data to report because they dont gather it. As for "more than all other car makers put together" might this be related to the fact that Tesla has SOLD more EVs than "all the other car makers put together" ??? hmmm? So be careful when you quote statistics.

 

[FordMME]

Can anyone please explain, to someone highly unfamiliar with the Tesla driver assistance ecosystem, what any of this means?

I am confused by all the terminology. Autopilot, Autosteer, Full Self Driving. I thought AutoPilot was basically just what we Ford folks call "lane centering" plus "adaptive cruise control." But hands have to stay on, as monitored by a torque sensor (and maybe cabin cam, too?) Whereas Full Self Driving is AutoPilot plus it changes lanes on the highway and actually makes turns and stops at signs and lights - basically "full self driving"... except that you're still supposed to keep your hands on the wheel (did not know this)?

I am confused by what driver monitoring is required for all of these things. I though Full Self Driving allowed you to drive hand free, like BlueCruise, but apparently not? What role does the torque sensor play for these things? What role does the cabin sensor play?

What is the OTA update going to do to make any of these things safer?

Not trying to flame - I'm genuinely curious and would appreciate non-fanboi answers. Thanks!

 

[Mardak]

Oh I understand the data

Then it seems like you're intentionally deceiving people by highlighting a chart with "Tesla… reported the most Level 2 ADAS crashes" and statements like "More than all other car manufactures put together." NHTSA even says "Use caution when attempting to compare crash data between entities."

 

[MP3Mike]

That's one thing I don't understand about this recall. AP1 hardware was introduced in late 2014. The cars built before then had no ability to do any kind of autosteer, so why are they included?

Probably because there are some people that have retrofitted AP1 hardware into vehicles as old as 2012. (And they are running the standard Tesla software for AP1.)

 

[Tha_Ape]

That's one thing I don't understand about this recall. AP1 hardware was introduced in late 2014. The cars built before then had no ability to do any kind of autosteer, so why are they included?

Now that you mention it... thats an excellent question. I suppose NHTSA just wanted to bound it to "all which were equipped" and the easiest way was to just cover the whole line up.

 

[advocate8]

It absolutely is a traditional recall, there is no other word we have right now. There was a safety issue brought to the NHTSA's attention. They investigated it and Tesla agreed to address it. What part of this isn't a recall? Because you don't have to drive to a repair shop? Doesn't make the situation any more or less unsafe until the issue is remediated. You can make up a new word, I guess, but the process would be the same

totally in agreement. But it is fair to say that recalls that can be done OTA aren’t the same thing as having to physically bring in the vehicle. This is a serious recall. No question. But it’s also OK to make the distinction it will done OTA. 99.8 percent of population currently understands the definition of “recall” as you bring your car into a dealer for a fix.
See, now you’ve got me off on this tangent, which is exactly the discussion I was trying to tamp down.

 

[fholbert]

No, they are just adding more nags, mostly to Autosteer (not FSD). And mostly this is around people using Autosteer where it was never intended to be used (city streets).

I’m under the impression ‘autopilot’ will no longer work on secondary roads, what ever that is. Sounds like that’s where the fatal accidents happened.

 

[sublimejackman]

Then you wouldn't have made this claim:


If I disengage AP drive for 25 seconds, and floor it to ram the car in front of me, that would be included in the statistics, but AP was not engaged at the time of the collision and had no involvement in it.

Or this one:

Because you have no idea how many collisions there were for other OEMs, because they don't even know. It could be thousands.

So, you either didn't understand the data, or you were lying.

No one is trying to lie, I get those things. I dug thru the 2023 CSV the NHTSA posted. First GM and Subaru now post "telemetricly", not just Tesla. Also, look at these places people are using AP! Right before a crash! There are 216 of these in one year! Dozens of them into other passenger cars. Like I'm all for perosnal freedom but each one of these places are innapropriate for AP as it stands today and we all know it

 

[HitchHiker71]

Can anyone please explain, to someone highly unfamiliar with the Tesla driver assistance ecosystem, what any of this means?

I am confused by all the terminology. Autopilot, Autosteer, Full Self Driving. I thought AutoPilot was basically just what we Ford folks call "lane centering" plus "adaptive cruise control." But hands have to stay on, as monitored by a torque sensor (and maybe cabin cam, too?) Whereas Full Self Driving is AutoPilot plus it changes lanes on the highway and actually makes turns and stops at signs and lights - basically "full self driving"... except that you're still supposed to keep your hands on the wheel (did not know this)?

I am confused by what driver monitoring is required for all of these things. I though Full Self Driving allowed you to drive hand free, like BlueCruise, but apparently not? What role does the torque sensor play for these things? What role does the cabin sensor play?

What is the OTA update going to do to make any of these things safer?

Not trying to flame - I'm genuinely curious and would appreciate non-fanboi answers. Thanks!

Rather than attempt to explain it with my own words, I'll point you to the Tesla documentation on these topics and terms directly. It'll only take you a few minutes to read really: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot

The answer to your question on what is the OTA going to do to make Autopilot/Autosteer safer? From the sounds of it, more nags and more strict inattentiveness checks via the in cabin camera that will disengage the Autopilot system if you refuse to pay attention. That and likely more strict engagement requirements where Autopilot/Autosteer simply won't engage unless you're on the highway, as opposed to local roads/city streets.

 

[wdolson]

But, as has been discussed at length, this is more related to the fact that only Tesla actively monitors the car and records these statistics. Other makers simply do not have to the data to report because they dont gather it. As for "more than all other car makers put together" might this be related to the fact that Tesla has SOLD more EVs than "all the other car makers put together" ??? hmmm? So be careful when you quote statistics.

There are ICE with autosteer features out there on the road and EVs that don't have it. The proper statistics would be to look at crashes for percentage of the fleet capable of this capability and compare manufacturer to manufacturer. A lot of car makers have offered some form of adaptive cruise control that can steer the car under some conditions for a few years now. I don't know how many cars out there have a system installed, but the number of cars with these systems probably outnumber Tesla's fleet of cars with AP.

Probably because there are some people that have retrofitted AP1 hardware into vehicles as old as 2012. (And they are running the standard Tesla software for AP1.)

I only know of one person who did that. It was someone here on the forum. He said it was such a massive pain he didn't want to try it again.

There may be others, but I think the person who tried it had to disconnect from the Tesla mothership to get AP working. So the car would not be able to be updated anyway.