Tesla refusing to show me my own logs?

[Electroman]

Heck it's so bad that the insurance institute made a mention of it when they did their study of various lane keeping systems.

And that same study also said the Lane keeping capability of Tesla's current AP2 version in M3 (which is the same in S and X also) is generations better than anything out there.

And the funny thing is the other auto makers charge money for it, and I haven't heard of anyone asking for logs (do they even have those?) or a refund.

 

[P100DHG.]

Bottom line (and people keep forgetting this) is that Tesla has publicly stated that Autopilot software is not complete nor completely tested and has not been released. Drivers (including me and you) who use Autopilot have to select a button that enables it in the menu and it explicitly states that this is Beta software...meaning you are testing software that has not been finalized yet. As such, the fact that it may phantom brake, steer oddly, or do other things, is totally in bounds (from a legal point of view) and YOU not Tesla are choosing to operate test software on the road environment recognizing (and accepting) liability for things the car may do because it is under your control. There are many on this list who have complained that Tesla is keeping Autopilot in Beta purely to protect themselves legally. While that may be true, I think the number of problems that Autopilot still has would point to the fact the software really is still in Beta and be more concerned if Tesla called the current software "Final".

As such, your comments that the phantom braking on the highway are a safety issue are correct, but they are a safety issue on YOU not Tesla, because you are choosing to operate test software in that environment.

As others have said, the other issues you have with your car may well support a lemon law claim (none of us can judge because you haven't shared them) but the phantom braking/autopilot issues you are seeing are not grounds for a lemon law claim because Tesla has not yet delivered a product to be defective...they are merely giving you the option of an advance preview/test of the current test software...

So we’ll put! So let me dumb it down, I don’t mean for the OP I mean literally make this post sound less intelligent than yours. The “deeply worrying” part is the lack of research people do before blowing $100,000. This is a known issue but not just for Tesla. My brother who has an Alpha Quattrofolio said his car has phantom braking frequently. I would say these issues exist with all drivers assistance features. My neighbor has at CT6 with Super Cruise he is determined to get the emergency braking to work. He puts boxes out of all shapes and runs into them just to see if he can get it to activate. It hasn’t worked once.

Fact is the OP bought the best car on the road and doesn’t like it. Should have done a 24 hour test drive. Tesla set me up with a Model X for a week when we weren’t sure and it convinced us. So to the OP I say Tesla has probably bent over 3 ways to make you happy but nothing will be good enough. I haven’t had one experience where Tesla hasn’t gone above and beyond.

 

[Matias]

On further reflection (and having just read the thread where people complain about being forced to install an update and some people staying on 2 year old software because they don't like the autopilot nags), it seems to me that Tesla is actually incredibly generous (and accepting risk no other car manufacturer accepts) by allowing customers to actually use a feature/software that is in Beta. Of course this is very common in the software industry (lots of people run pre-release versions of new operating systems) but unheard of in a car. So this really is a case of the original poster consciously choosing to enable a feature that is in test and then being upset that it doesn't work flawlessly....

Last time I checked, they’re asking money for it...

They’re not giving it for free as a service to mankind.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

And that same study also said the Lane keeping capability of Tesla's current AP2 version in M3 (which is the same in S and X also) is generations better than anything out there.

And the funny thing is the other auto makers charge money for it, and I haven't heard of anyone asking for logs (do they even have those?) or a refund.

Yeah, it was an informative study. Where it showed AP2 was really good at lane-following, and in braking for various events. But, that it had phantom braking the other systems didn't have.

I thought it was a little too easily dismissive of these events as trivial.

On the Northwest facebook group there was a post today about a phantom braking event. I replied back asking if it mostly happens with AP or does it also happen with TACC. I've asked this question a half-dozen times without any substantial answer. But, there was another post that I thought was interesting. The person replied back with the fact that they don't use AP with the family in the car.

In my own driving with AP2 I haven't experienced a phantom braking event yet, but I only use TACC. I also only got the car a week ago so not enough data. I probably won't use AP until the automatic lane changing is added.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Last time I checked, they’re asking money for it...

They’re not giving it for free as a service to mankind.

Last time I checked it's been in beta for almost two years, and my 2015 AP1 car still had the beta label for AP when I traded it in.

So I'm thinking AP will have beta tag by default, and owners we shouldn't put much into that. We should be treating it as if it's a feature we paid $5K for.

Just like we should demand perfection from paint that was a $2500 option.

 

[100%power]

Hello everyone,

• I'm currently dealing with several issues with my 2018 Model S which is forcing me to open a lemon law claim. To substantiate one of my claims (that the car is randomly braking on therstate) I would like to see my car's logs with my own eyes. After my latest interactions with my service center I don't think I can trust them any longer (also for
• additional reasons not listed here), they refuse to show me anything. The tech that I've been dealing with is nearly combative when they should be supportive of my inquiries. This is deeply worrying to me as I no longer feel safe in my vehicleI would rather not have to subpoena these logs and go through a drawn out legal process so I was wondering if there was any other possible avenue. Anything I can do that won't void my warranty or anyone that I can speak to.To me, it seems straightforward: I bought the hardware. The hardware performs a logging task. Therefore the

• belong to me. Especially when the performance/safety/quality of the car is in question.

So far dealing with Tesla and owning this car has been a huge nightmare which is sad because I was really excited and wanted to love this car at
first.

Any information would be helpful! Thanks in
advance.

There a vid on Utube some guy was showing the access to vehicles parameter he said and showed
there were thousands of system monitored from voltage your window switch to most useless event like the bulb in glovebox that if computer noticed any changes in set parameters that they have for each device.And if it was under or over set amount that car would warn you before failure would happen. I have had failure in my trunk motor ,never had system warning before. So I
don’t think there are very many devices that log detects and no display to warn you before it happens, in that video there were pages after pages that the car Manages. I am sure there are issues that they don’t want you to see what may be getting close to Failure that why when you take it in for service they check logs for that and if they think it needs to be addressed they will repair it.

 

[emmz0r]

Citation needed.

Dude, EU is a draconian nightmare. It was the curvature of cucumbers as well:

Bent banana and curved cucumber rules dropped - yeah they perhaps voted it out, but it WAS there. Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94 - Wikipedia

Other "goodies":
EU halogen light bulb ban: everything you need to know – Which? News
EU approves controversial Copyright Directive, including internet ‘link tax’ and ‘upload filter’

Also the EU idiots prevents us here from having a normal Summon feature.

 

[Electroman]

I probably won't use AP until the automatic lane changing is added.

Why should the absence of automatic lane changing keep anyone from using AP in the current form?

I think you have an inherent hatred and blinded by even the trivial of things that show up on a forum and keep regurgitating 100 times to make it seem that issue is much larger than what it is. You can take any system - anything - however good it is, you can always find some fault in it and keep magnifying it over and over without putting any context or semblance of reasoning.

You either have no objectivity or you are simply trolling here.

And you are writing all of that without even owning a Tesla (until a week ago) ? Wow.

 

[100%power]

Personally lot good points if you live in EU, but I think Tesla can’t override what is dictated by public misconception of true facts being undermined by those select few that will not allow us to move forward , seems like they always rain in the parade of progress or is that regress. Better buy some bitcoins before we run out of our faithful promise notes. No more changing that into Gold let alone we lost our rights to Silver back in 60s .
Only one thing seems we don’t believe what is written on back of every single Financial note anymore.Sad but true.

 

[fallen888]

I would like to see my car's logs

They're not your logs and Tesla doesn't have to show you any of them.

 

[ricebucket]

They're not your logs and Tesla doesn't have to show you any of them.

What's your reasoning that this is not his logs?

I don't want to go into the discussion of AP problems/inadequacies or whether the OP has a valid lemon law claim, but I do think the subject of this thread, the logs issue, raises troubling questions.

Tesla is recording things that are happening to our cars, including our operation of the cars, but they're not letting us see the logs. Legal issues aside, is this really how things *should* be? Should Tesla really have access to such recordings, including remote access that can be retrieved without our knowledge? Are there sufficient internal controls at Tesla to prevent misuse of such sensitive information? For example, what's to prevent a Tesla employee from tracking his girlfriend remotely?

Also how Tesla uses those logs is somewhat hypocritical. The owner is not allowed access to them, but Tesla has shown in the past that they can choose to release logs if they choose to. Often, this is done at a time that is maximally embarrassing to the owner (perhaps *only* in such embarrassing situations?). That is, after an accident to say that the owner crashed the car because he is not paying attention while using autopilot. I would be OK with using logs for maintenance or diagnostics, but I do think a public release of such crash information is damaging to the owner. Have there been examples of Tesla releasing logs in situations that are actually beneficial to the owner?

 

[fallen888]

What's your reasoning that this is not his logs?

It's just my opinion, that's all. Their servers, their network, their logs.

Also how Tesla uses those logs is somewhat hypocritical. The owner is not allowed access to them, but Tesla has shown in the past that they can choose to release logs if they choose to.

I don't see it as hypocritical. Again, it's their prerogative to release the logs or not.

Have there been examples of Tesla releasing logs in situations that are actually beneficial to the owner?

Yes, I believe I've read about some of those cases in the past. Also, I've requested my car's logs to be pulled when I was getting an service alert - I called in and they were able to help me diagnose the issue by reviewing the logs (ended up replacing the drive train).

Again, this is just my opinion. I can't really speak to the legality of it all.

 

[neroden]

Thank you. This is the sort of constructive an informative response I was looking for. And you're totally correct that I am assuming responsibility when it's enabled, I won't debate that, and I fully recognize that this is beta. That being said I will still maintain that we've progressed from from odd and quirky behavior to downright life threatening behavior.

Legally, it should be possible to brake anywhere whatsoever. Including at 70 mph on the superhighway. I've had to brake to a dead stop from 70 mph on the expressway -- in a carpool lane with Jersey barriers on both sides -- to avoid hitting a car in front of me which had stopped dead (probably due to a collision).

If people are tailgating you, *they* are responsible if they then hit you from behind.

In short, legally, the software is doing the right thing by erring on the side of braking, and if anyone rear-ends you it's their fault. If it erred on the side of running into things in front of it, it would deservedly get more criticism.

I don't drive on roads where I get tailgated. You might consider doing the same thing.

Also, to chime in with what others have said: It is clear Autopilot is not meeting your needs. So don't use it. You may be able to get a prorated refund, or you may not.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Why should the absence of automatic lane changing keep anyone from using AP in the current form?

I think you have an inherent hatred and blinded by even the trivial of things that show up on a forum and keep regurgitating 100 times to make it seem that issue is much larger than what it is. You can take any system - anything - however good it is, you can always find some fault in it and keep magnifying it over and over without putting any context or semblance of reasoning.

You either have no objectivity or you are simply trolling here.

And you are writing all of that without even owning a Tesla (until a week ago) ? Wow.

In June of 2015 I took delivery of a Model S with AP1
I immediately fell in love with the Car, and with TACC
In Oct of 2018 AP was released that contained lane steering
In Nov of 2018 I took a trip from Seattle to Santa Cruz and it was mostly on AP. I had a few issues with it like diving for the exits when in the right hand lane, but all in all I thought it was pretty cool

At some point I discovered that AP was causing me to lose situational awareness, and so I started using it more infrequently. Either in really heavy freeway traffic or hardly any traffic at all. Now this was a personal decision that isn't a reflection on the car/technology.

At some point later on I experienced a few issues with truck lust, and this really put me off using it. I was also perfectly happy with TACC only.

Then AP2 was released and I was excited by what it could offer. Mainly the fact that it had side backwards facing cameras and more cameras up front. I was mostly excited by automatic lane changes without telling it to, and having it simply follow the nav.

From the point AP2 was released until July 31st of this year I waited for AP2 to mature. I figured once it got to a point where a significant upgrade of AP2 then I'd upgrade.

But, then there were things about the P3D+ that excited me. Things like track mode, and how fast it is. So I ended up getting an AP2 car sooner than I anticipated.

 

[Tam]

...What's your reasoning that this is not his logs?...

It's just like I can take notes and you can take notes. Both can write notes but a note belongs to whoever writes it.

Tesla keeps its log in a certain place.

Owners who know how that works can also keep a car log in their own location (memory card, cell phone, or server...)

For those who don't know to get a car log, get a dash cam not just for front view but also for your foot pedals so you can have proofs.

 

[Electroman]

What you own is the car - the hardware. You do NOT own the software or anything that software generates.

Just like how you cannot demand that Tesla give you the source code or the binary of the software that runs in your hardware, you cannot demand they give you the logs that software generates.

In the event of an accident if they use that log to contradict you, then I guess you can subpoena and get the data to make your case out of it.

 

[xyeahtony]

Is this really worth the effort fighting tesla for? why can't people just enjoy the car lol.

it's unfinished software. Frankly im surprised we even have autopilot given the tendencies of people like the OP to complain about inconsequential things.

Autopilot is a drivers assistance tool, so it does not replace any part of normal driving. In the 1 or 2 times i've had phantom braking, i immediately step on the "gas" and speed back up. no big deal. I'm always ready to regain control 100% at a moments notice. That's the purpose of AP, not for you to sit back and relax and text.

And if you're a defensive driver, you wouldn't have to worry about someone behind you so close that they'd hit you. move over to the slow lane and let them pass or speed up and maintain distance.

 

[Tam]

...Is this really worth the effort fighting tesla for?...

It sounds like a simple case of Buyer's Remorse.

He seems to be willing for a refund of $5,000 back because of the phantom brake.

And of course, if this forum can show him how to get a refund of the whole car with the lemon law, he would love that even more!

 

[OPRCE]

Does switching off the AEB (automatic emergency braking) really affect the frequency of phantom braking in AP2 cars at all?

I have always left mine on, but other Model S AP2 owners have told me this was the solution for them.

It may be worth OP's time to give this a test and avoid an expensive litigation if it works out ... the other side of the coin being that one can suffer a more severe accident with AEB deactivated.

 

[E-Ryc]

What you own is the car - the hardware. You do NOT own the software or anything that software generates.

Strictly taken, you don't even own the hardware - they don't allow you to load your own software into it (without "hacking" which is probably infringement of DMCA)