Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[stopcrazypp]

The parking assist lines only work if you are driving under 20mph, does the same limitation apply to the USS as well?

While driving in bumper to bumper traffic I noticed that the parking assist lines are tracking cars next to me fairly well. It'll even wrap around to their front bumper. The funny thing is that while semitrucks next to me would float and jump all over the place, the parking assist lines would track their real location. I wish they would do something about the semitruck tracking on the base Autopilot.

Also I've never seen semitrucks in my garage until this recent update.

I have the USS.

The full parking assist mode (where it shows a top down view and detailed lines and distance to bumpers) is only active below 5mph. When driving at higher speeds it shows pings (archs around the car), but it's not a detailed view like the full parking assist mode and not particularly useful.

Examples from other users of the higher speed pings:

Yellow Arc Line: Meaning ?

Not sure exactly which mode you are referring to.

As for semitrucks in the garage, it has done that in my USS car for a long while. Having USS is irrelevant to it.

 

[whitex]

So I heard back from my relatives who bought a Model Y without USS and were missing this feature, after switching from an 11 year old Toyota which had USS. The one phrase summary was "better than nothing". Perhaps that was the goal, so we can call this delivered?

 

[Mullermn]

It’s an initial version, it’s not ‘delivered’ in the sense that it’s finished. This is pretty obvious if you think about it.

Tesla have several functions relating to parking in their portfolio that currently don’t work correctly.. summon, smart summon, etc. clearly they weren’t able to get those to work properly with USS, which is no surprise considering the inherent limitations of those sensors in terms of their blind spots and inability to see curbs.

Assuming Tesla are planning to reintroduce those functions (which they are, because they’re still selling them on the non-USS cars) then vision park assist will need to be more capable and we should assume there is a roadmap for improvements ahead of it.

 

[MrBadger]

Tesla have several functions relating to parking in their portfolio that currently don’t work correctly.. summon, smart summon, etc. clearly they weren’t able to get those to work properly with USS, which is no surprise considering the inherent limitations of those sensors in terms of their blind spots and inability to see curbs.

It’s the park assist that can now see kerbs, other functionality has been able to see kerbs long before now. Whether it actually used that information is not so obvious. Vision based self parking came in several years ago, smart summon before that. All camera based. So ability to see kerbs is not new. Before vision park it was USS based, but smart summon is and always has been same as self drive capabilities so vision based but probably old vision rather than new vision.

 

[jeremymc7]

Speaking of Tesla Vision, Park Assist and USS didn’t Musk promise Birds Eye top down view with the cameras used to stich?

What’s the status of this?

Tesla Vision is seemly using this exact data to determine where to display the distance warning lines around the car of the screen.

So it should’t take more coding to add this at this time.

Carrying on with park functions it would be a nice add to allow the option to switch the repeaters and rear truck camera views when backing in to an alternative of the front windshield and forward b pillar camera views when pulling into space. Useful for parking spots with poles, walls, curbs, or other near objects.

Again this should be super easy to just add the 3 extra views and a button to switch between them or make it automatic with logic depending on gear car is in and other things like speed, location, surroundings.

 

[MP3Mike]

Speaking of Tesla Vision, Park Assist and USS didn’t Musk promise Birds Eye top down view with the cameras used to stich?

No. He said that they were going to provide a vector based bird's eye view. Which has existed for a long time.

 

[whitex]

It’s an initial version, it’s not ‘delivered’ in the sense that it’s finished. This is pretty obvious if you think about it.

Tesla have several functions relating to parking in their portfolio that currently don’t work correctly.. summon, smart summon, etc. clearly they weren’t able to get those to work properly with USS, which is no surprise considering the inherent limitations of those sensors in terms of their blind spots and inability to see curbs.

Assuming Tesla are planning to reintroduce those functions (which they are, because they’re still selling them on the non-USS cars) then vision park assist will need to be more capable and we should assume there is a roadmap for improvements ahead of it.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions. Just because they are selling a functionality does not mean it will ever actually work, Using your logic, given Tesla sold people cars in 2016 which were supposed to be able to be summoned from New York city to Los Angeles, you could have made a ton of assumptions of what that 2016 Tesla will have to be able to do in order to live up to the promised functionality. Spoiler alert, despite Tesla selling the feature, 2016 AP2 car will never drive itself from New York to Los Angeles, nor will it ever drive for Tesla ride sharing network bringing the owner revenue while they are not using their car, etc, etc. Somewhat recently Tesla lawyers called not delivering on features they sell as simply "missing an aspirational future goal", meaning in their minds, they are never legally obligated to deliver any future features they sell. If it doesn't work on delivery day, don't count on it. If it works on delivery day, pray they don't remove it of screw it up.

I've been driving Teslas for a decade, this has been my experience. After my 2nd Model S, I only counted on what was available on delivery day, and account that some features might stop working even if they did before (e.g. web browser on MCU1 cars - even after replacing the MCU with a new one, it still doesn't work, so obviously even Tesla gave up on it). I still bought 2 more after that, but never paid for any future features, much better ownership experience this way. Stopped buying Tesla after they forced the stalkless yoke. The current rounded yoke is still stalkless, so the worst of both worlds for me. Maybe someday I will buy more Teslas, if they get a compelling car offering. For now, still have one Model S at home, the old one, with a real steering wheel, did not pay for any future features on it, my wife is happy with it for now.

 

[Knightshade]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions. Just because they are selling a functionality does not mean it will ever actually work, Using your logic, given Tesla sold people cars in 2016 which were supposed to be able to be summoned from New York city to Los Angeles, you could have made a ton of assumptions of what that 2016 Tesla will have to be able to do in order to live up to the promised functionality. Spoiler alert, despite Tesla selling the feature, 2016 AP2 car will never drive itself from New York to Los Angeles, nor will it ever drive for Tesla ride sharing network bringing the owner revenue while they are not using their car, etc, etc. Somewhat recently Tesla lawyers called not delivering on features they sell as simply "missing an aspirational future goal", meaning in their minds, they are never legally obligated to deliver any future features they sell. If it doesn't work on delivery day, don't count on it. If it works on delivery day, pray they don't remove it of screw it up.

So- two points here.

Tesla never promised any buyer of FSD it'd be able to be summoned from NY to LA.... in fact the BROADEST description they ever provided a buyer during the sales process still specifically called out someone being in the drivers seat (though it specified they'd need take no action while there- which would be a minimum of L4 under SAE rules)

and

That 2016 car, if they actually bought FSD (which you'd need for any self driving) isn't an AP2 car anymore, as upgrades to AP3 were provided for free to all such people (though IIRC the camera upgrades are still in progress for some). That doesn't mean AP3 will be able to do L4 either of course- though Tesla claims they still think it will.


Anyway, since ~march 2019 Tesla got WAY more specific about what you get buying FSD--- and if you count FSDb as being widely available (in NA anyway) they've now delivered everything that was promised for the future in that description.

There's still plenty of things not promised during sale that Elon certainly said they hope to do, and those are, indeed, aspirational goals- which really are different from "What you're actually, specifically promised during purchase of a thing"

 

[Mullermn]

Speaking of Tesla Vision, Park Assist and USS didn’t Musk promise Birds Eye top down view with the cameras used to stich?

What’s the status of this?

Tesla Vision is seemly using this exact data to determine where to display the distance warning lines around the car of the screen.

So it should’t take more coding to add this at this time.

That’s actually quite different than what the car is doing. The car uses the raw data it gets from the various cameras ('raw' in the sense that it is not looking at a video image that a human could look at) to build a 3D model of its environment, mapping out which cubes of space are occupied by an object and which are empty. This is what they call the occupancy network and is the basis for the self driving functions in the car. Presumably the new parking functions simply extract distance measurements from that model as if they were readings from US sensors.

Carrying on with park functions it would be a nice add to allow the option to switch the repeaters and rear truck camera views when backing in to an alternative of the front windshield and forward b pillar camera views when pulling into space. Useful for parking spots with poles, walls, curbs, or other near objects.

This would be useful. I'd also like if the cameras stayed on for the whole low speed parking process rather than disappearing when you switch to drive. Minor change but quite useful I think.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This would be useful. I'd also like if the cameras stayed on for the whole low speed parking process rather than disappearing when you switch to drive. Minor change but quite useful I think.

I put a camera icon in my app menu and turn it on when going forward, this keeps the camera views on throughout my driving.

 

[jeremymc7]

I put a camera icon in my app menu and turn it on when going forward, this keeps the camera views on throughout my driving.

Wait, what? Couldn't you explain this a bit more?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Wait, what? Couldn't you explain this a bit more?

There are two ways you can open the rear/side cameras permanently.

When you are in Drive (I believe it stays up also even if you do it in Park):
1) press the 3 dots on the bottom of the screen (the App launcher), then press the Camera app (not the dashcam icon, the other icon that has a camera). This will open the rear view camera (you can swipe down or press the bar to show the side cameras also)

2) Add the Camera icon permanently to the bottom menu bar by pressing and holding the My Apps section. It will let you choose apps you can drag down to the menu bar. I have the Camera and Dashcam permanently on that bar. This allows me to just press the Camera button to keep it permanently on while driving.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

The overview displays information related to the touchscreen, vehicle, and driving.

www.tesla.com

It does block the map, but that's not generally an issue given it still shows the directions. I only close the camera view when I'm at an unfamiliar place and I really need to see the map.

 

[jeremymc7]

I put a camera icon in my app menu and turn it on when going forward, this keeps the camera views on throughout my driving.

Ok I thought you were talking about how to get the b pillar and front camera on the screen somehow.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ok I thought you were talking about how to get the b pillar and front camera on the screen somehow.

I was responding directly to the comment talking about keeping cameras up, not talking about front or B-pillar cameras, which is a separate issue.

 

[whitex]

Tesla never promised any buyer of FSD it'd be able to be summoned from NY to LA.... in fact the BROADEST description they ever provided a buyer during the sales process still specifically called out someone being in the drivers seat (though it specified they'd need take no action while there- which would be a minimum of L4 under SAE rules)

Well, Elon did, but let's take a look at the official text from the Design Studio, the ordering page:

I highlighted 3 parts

1. Yellow part - you mentioned it yourself, but think about it, no action required from driver on short or long distance trips, meaning the driver can be completely incapacitated, right? So only there for legal CYA, someone to talk to in case the car is pulled over? As you point out, that is not delivered.
2. Blue part - This suggests the car will navigate city and highways with no driver in the car (nowhere does it say it has to be private property or a parking lot, my destination could be Times Square in NYC, the car will drive and find a parking spot somewhere in the city). This one pretty much implies "summon anywhere within range of the car", since the nearest parking spot might be in the next city.
3. Red part - if what you are saying is true, and Tesla still specifically called out that someone must be present in the driver's seat, are you saying it is against the terms of service for any Tesla with FSD to drive for any non-Tesla ride sharing service (with the driver present in the driver's seat)?!? Also, this was from 2016, have you heard any details on the Tesla Network? Given it's been 7 times longer than "next year", don't you think it's reasonable to expect this already, especially given a car lifespan is maybe 15 years total.

That 2016 car, if they actually bought FSD (which you'd need for any self driving) isn't an AP2 car anymore, as upgrades to AP3 were provided for free to all such people (though IIRC the camera upgrades are still in progress for some).

If 7 years later the upgrade to an old AP (AP3 is old now, given than AP4 is out) is still in progress (yes, cameras qualify, unless Tesla can demonstrate all of the above promised functionality with AP3 and old cameras), then no, they have not been upgraded. You are falling into a Tesla logic trap, if they do something for a subset of cars, you consider it delivered. I on the other hand prefer to think of a job as not done unless it's finished.

There's still plenty of things not promised during sale that Elon certainly said they hope to do, and those are, indeed, aspirational goals- which really are different from "What you're actually, specifically promised during purchase of a thing"

I'm ok stipulating Tesla delivered, even if they only deliver on the above description from the Design Studio (where you selected the option). That said, I am certain they will never deliver all of the mentioned functionality for all of the AP2 cars sold within their reasonable lifespan, say 15 years (since of course, Tesla could wait 300 years, then offer to retrofit the few remaining AP2 car in museums with latest auto-pilot which delivers everything).

 

[SalisburySam]

Well, Elon did, but let's take a look at the official text from the Design Studio, the ordering page:
View attachment 927492

I highlighted 3 parts

1. Yellow part - you mentioned it yourself, but think about it, no action required from driver on short or long distance trips, meaning the driver can be completely incapacitated, right? So only there for legal CYA, someone to talk to in case the car is pulled over? As you point out, that is not delivered.
2. Blue part - This suggests the car will navigate city and highways with no driver in the car (nowhere does it say it has to be private property or a parking lot, my destination could be Times Square in NYC, the car will drive and find a parking spot somewhere in the city). This one pretty much implies "summon anywhere within range of the car", since the nearest parking spot might be in the next city.
3. Red part - if what you are saying is true, and Tesla still specifically called out that someone must be present in the driver's seat, are you saying it is against the terms of service for any Tesla with FSD to drive for any non-Tesla ride sharing service (with the driver present in the driver's seat)?!? Also, this was from 2016, have you heard any details on the Tesla Network? Given it's been 7 times longer than "next year", don't you think it's reasonable to expect this already, especially given a car lifespan is maybe 15 years total.

If 7 years later the upgrade to an old AP (AP3 is old now, given than AP4 is out) is still in progress (yes, cameras qualify, unless Tesla can demonstrate all of the above promised functionality with AP3 and old cameras), then no, they have not been upgraded. You are falling into a Tesla logic trap, if they do something for a subset of cars, you consider it delivered. I on the other hand prefer to think of a job as not done unless it's finished.



I'm ok stipulating Tesla delivered, even if they only deliver on the above description from the Design Studio (where you selected the option). That said, I am certain they will never deliver all of the mentioned functionality for all of the AP2 cars sold within their reasonable lifespan, say 15 years (since of course, Tesla could wait 300 years, then offer to retrofit the few remaining AP2 car in museums with latest auto-pilot which delivers everything).

This explains well everything I didn’t get with my EAP/FSD purchase. This trip down memory lane reminds me how foolish I was.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well, Elon did, but let's take a look at the official text from the Design Studio, the ordering page:
View attachment 927492

I highlighted 3 parts

1. Yellow part - you mentioned it yourself, but think about it, no action required from driver on short or long distance trips, meaning the driver can be completely incapacitated, right? So only there for legal CYA, someone to talk to in case the car is pulled over? As you point out, that is not delivered.

The wording is vague enough that it could simply mean you don't have to actively apply inputs into the car. Basically end-to-end L2 could qualify for this. The sticking point is the steering wheel nags, but in context to how AP originally worked (with little to no steering nags), that was added due to regulatory pressure (which they disclaim later). They are trying to use the cabin camera to reduce or eliminate steering nag, but NHTSA finger wagged when Elon suggested that earlier in the year.

1. Blue part - This suggests the car will navigate city and highways with no driver in the car (nowhere does it say it has to be private property or a parking lot, my destination could be Times Square in NYC, the car will drive and find a parking spot somewhere in the city). This one pretty much implies "summon anywhere within range of the car", since the nearest parking spot might be in the next city.

This could be satisfied with a parking lot L4 parking mode (something suggested as probable L4 functionality in SAE documents). While it does not say it won't work out in city roads, it also doesn't say it will work on all roads and conditions. In fact, L4 explicitly allows geofence and road type based limitations (most L4 cars are heavily geofenced and do not travel on the highway during commercial service). I think it's a huge stretch to say it implies highway usage based on a parking space in the next city over. But so far regardless, no such L4 parking functionality is available yet from Tesla.

1. Red part - if what you are saying is true, and Tesla still specifically called out that someone must be present in the driver's seat, are you saying it is against the terms of service for any Tesla with FSD to drive for any non-Tesla ride sharing service (with the driver present in the driver's seat)?!? Also, this was from 2016, have you heard any details on the Tesla Network? Given it's been 7 times longer than "next year", don't you think it's reasonable to expect this already, especially given a car lifespan is maybe 15 years total.

Tesla Network has been removed from Tesla's site completely and the details never came, so it's a bit moot (plus a sentence without detailed terms and conditions would hardly qualify as an agreement that the owner can't use the car in FSD mode with Uber for example). As you mention yourself, the page does not explicitly say such ride-sharing is without someone in the driver's seat. Someone doing rideshare with FSD Beta while in driver's seat (as plenty of YouTube videos show) can easily fall under this. In fact even many L4 cars are required to have safety drivers especially in states like California, where only recently is driverless commercial passenger service allowed.

 

[Knightshade]

Well, Elon did, but let's take a look at the official text from the Design Studio, the ordering page:
View attachment 927492

I highlighted 3 parts

1. Yellow part - you mentioned it yourself, but think about it, no action required from driver on short or long distance trips, meaning the driver can be completely incapacitated, right? So only there for legal CYA, someone to talk to in case the car is pulled over? As you point out, that is not delivered.

1. 
   
   Right- buyers prior to March 2019 are still owed L4 driving- as I said.
   
   

   [*]Blue part - This suggests the car will navigate city and highways with no driver in the car

   
   It does not say that- it says it will navigate between your destination and the nearest parking spot without a driver.
   
   I can't really conceive of any situation where that would involve a highway-- and CERTAINLY not one involving driving across the country.
   
   I CAN see where it might be on city streets- if it's dropping you in front of a downtown restaurant then needs to find a spot down the block or something. But that's VASTLY VASTLY different from "You can summon it from 3000 miles away"
   
   
   

   [*]Red part - if what you are saying is true, and Tesla still specifically called out that someone must be present in the driver's seat, are you saying it is against the terms of service for any Tesla with FSD to drive for any non-Tesla ride sharing service (with the driver present in the driver's seat)?!?

   
   I think as written it would violate the terms to do so with the car doing the dynamic driving task (so L3 or higher)-- which is a feature that does not currently exist.
   
   
   

   Also, this was from 2016, have you heard any details on the Tesla Network? Given it's been 7 times longer than "next year", don't you think it's reasonable to expect this already, especially given a car lifespan is maybe 15 years total.

Tesla has since learned not to be that specific promising dates (their last mistake on this was saying "later this year" in the early days of the "new" FSD description for city streets driving). There's been more details in that Elon talked about it some including guesses at income and revenue-- but there's been no details of specially how it'll really work because of course there's no actual self driving yet.

As to "reasonably expect" that'd be up to a jury about what is reasonable. It hasn't QUITE been 7 years yet-- it was from very late 2016 when HW2/FSD was first sold to someone, so that'll come this fall.

I do think if they don't deliver L4 anytime soon (and I don't think they can, esp. on HW3) then you will begin to see some lawsuits over it on exactly that 'reasonable' basis from those who bought FSD prior to March 2019. The "good" news for Tesla I guess is that's a relatively small # of people, and they only paid ~3k for it.

If 7 years later the upgrade to an old AP (AP3 is old now, given than AP4 is out) is still in progress (yes, cameras qualify, unless Tesla can demonstrate all of the above promised functionality with AP3 and old cameras), then no, they have not been upgraded.

I mean- they have though- HW3 wasn't upgraded in peoples cars the moment it came out, because it provided no actual functionality over HW2.

Once it did they began scheduling upgrades.

Likewise the AP2 cameras didn't provide any FSD functionality different from the 2.5/3 cameras for years-- once they did they began upgrades. That seems a pretty logical way to do it. The fact it's a slow rollout, esp. when they can point to supply chain issues (as every business is doing these days) makes this pretty "reasonable"

You are falling into a Tesla logic trap, if they do something for a subset of cars, you consider it delivered. I on the other hand prefer to think of a job as not done unless it's finished.

It's much like any recall from any car maker... at least for physical recalls. Some take a long time to complete based on parts availability but you can't sue them for refusing to fix the issue if they ARE actively fixing it as quickly as their parts and service capacity allow-- even if that means it takes a while. Doubly so here (compared to a recall) since there's no safety problem endangering the driver.





I'm ok stipulating Tesla delivered, even if they only deliver on the above description from the Design Studio (where you selected the option). That said, I am certain they will never deliver all of the mentioned functionality for all of the AP2 cars sold within their reasonable lifespan, say 15 years (since of course, Tesla could wait 300 years, then offer to retrofit the few remaining AP2 car in museums with latest auto-pilot which delivers everything).
[/QUOTE]

 

[whitex]

I CAN see where it might be on city streets- if it's dropping you in front of a downtown restaurant then needs to find a spot down the block or something. But that's VASTLY VASTLY different from "You can summon it from 3000 miles away"

Which is why, if you read a little further, I said "summon within car's range". If the car drops you at a downtown restaurant in a large city like NYC or Toronto for example, the car might have to travel on both city and a highway to find parking, meaning it needs to handle all driving by itself. The only difference between what Elon said it would do, summon coast to coast, and what Tesla said it would do is the range limitation.

 

[Knightshade]

Which is why, if you read a little further, I said "summon within car's range". If the car drops you at a downtown restaurant in a large city like NYC or Toronto for example, the car might have to travel on both city and a highway to find parking

.... can you show me on google maps where dropping me at a NYC restaurant would involve getting on a highway to find a parking spot? I'm from NY originally, and still visit fairly often, and can't really think of any sort of example like that.

(Then again, I can't imagine taking your car to dinner in NYC either given how good public transit it, but YMMV)

, meaning it needs to handle all driving by itself. The only difference between what Elon said it would do, summon coast to coast, and what Tesla said it would do is the range limitation.

I mean that's a big limitation-- the car can't charge itself.

But there's plenty of others-- any where it might get a flat tire between the restaurant and a parking space would be a pretty standard problem for you compared to any other car.

Getting a flat in the middle of nowhere Wyoming while you're 2000 miles away might be trickier.