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Tesla Supercharger network
- Thread starter dsm363
- Start date
DFibRL8R
Active Member
I am curious why Tesla has completely ignored the need for superchargers in major US cities. I recognize the stated vision for the superchargers was to allow long distance travel. But getting proper charging in a city is a real hassle as a visitor or resident. Many residents are in apartments and getting the building owner to install chargers is at best a hassle and often impossible. As a visitor, I have had to take my chances on plugshare to find a J1772 in a cramped garage that may or may not be blocked, in-use or even broken when I find it. Contrast this with major cities in Asia and Japan and Europe:
London 8 superchargers
Tokyo 3
Shanghai 7
Beijing 6
Hong Kong 5
In Manhattan, the Tesla store won't even let owners use their HPWC! There are very few major US cities in the US with Superchargers or on the coming soon list.
I believe this is a lost opportunity for sales to people who live in cities in the US.
London 8 superchargers
Tokyo 3
Shanghai 7
Beijing 6
Hong Kong 5
In Manhattan, the Tesla store won't even let owners use their HPWC! There are very few major US cities in the US with Superchargers or on the coming soon list.
I believe this is a lost opportunity for sales to people who live in cities in the US.
I think initially when the supercharger rollout began they purposely avoided the cities with the intent of "superchargers for long distance travel". I believe they have changed their philosophy somewhat and will hit the big cities after they get most of the gaps filled in on the interstates. I believe they realize that by the time Model 3 comes out and with their target sales of 500,000/yr that the demographic of buyers will shift with many of those sales going to city dwellers who don't have a reasonable place to charge at home.
I agree with you that they are probably losing some current Model S sales to people who live in big cities with no charging facilities where they live. But Tesla has stated many times they don't need to do anything to increase demand at this time - they are still production constrained.
The right answer is still proper L2 charging, not more L3 charging for this situation. It's better for your battery, it's more convenient, and it has a better environmental footprint unless you have a massive solar array hooked up. The electricity infrastructure and the traffic is different in U.S. major cities versus some of these other cities.
My guess is there are several reasons for not putting Superchargers in cities in U.S.
- inter-city buildout is still far from complete: getting to and from places is the primary focus
- space is harder to come by and thus more expensive, and permitting likely more difficult as well
- there is lots of demand to satisfy without putting Superchargers in cities: production is still the primary constraint
- for travelers they are using the Destination Charging HPWC program to solve the problem via hotels
- there could be a concern about the ongoing power costs should city-based owners rely primarily on Superchargers rather than at-home charging
Fundamentally I think Tesla can't afford to fix the city charging infrastructure problem on its own. At some point building owners need to step up, pushed by people like us. I've heard from a fellow Tesla owner here in Cambridge that Tesla has offered to speak with his building management to help them come up with a solution for their condo owners and renters. People like ChargePoint are also trying to deal with this, and an urban land planner I know has been hired by a city to help them with this issue.
As for why things are different in Europe and Asia, a few thoughts come to mind:
- higher percentage of population (= market) in cities
- shorter inter-city distances reduce need to stop and charge while en route but make destination supercharging more important
- greater need to stimulate demand (and fewer multi-car families who would have an ICE as well)
- fewer charging network alternatives like ChargePoint (?)
Just my thoughts.
- inter-city buildout is still far from complete: getting to and from places is the primary focus
- space is harder to come by and thus more expensive, and permitting likely more difficult as well
- there is lots of demand to satisfy without putting Superchargers in cities: production is still the primary constraint
- for travelers they are using the Destination Charging HPWC program to solve the problem via hotels
- there could be a concern about the ongoing power costs should city-based owners rely primarily on Superchargers rather than at-home charging
Fundamentally I think Tesla can't afford to fix the city charging infrastructure problem on its own. At some point building owners need to step up, pushed by people like us. I've heard from a fellow Tesla owner here in Cambridge that Tesla has offered to speak with his building management to help them come up with a solution for their condo owners and renters. People like ChargePoint are also trying to deal with this, and an urban land planner I know has been hired by a city to help them with this issue.
As for why things are different in Europe and Asia, a few thoughts come to mind:
- higher percentage of population (= market) in cities
- shorter inter-city distances reduce need to stop and charge while en route but make destination supercharging more important
- greater need to stimulate demand (and fewer multi-car families who would have an ICE as well)
- fewer charging network alternatives like ChargePoint (?)
Just my thoughts.
Yes, but the 200 mile comment was when the distance was being calculated for 85 kw batteries only. The distance was recalculated to allow 60's to distance travel also following that comment. So there will be more stations necessary to cover the US and a little longer until they get to the cities is my take.
I am pretty sure this comment is OLD. I can not find the link right now but will look for it. The current goal is about 65-75 miles from what I recall.
Many Superchargers are built in cities already. It makes perfect sense as that's where the majority of traffic happens. The need is to recharge quickly when more driving is necessary isn't limited in long distance driving. Obviously the question is how many stations Tesla wants to built. Demand will only increase.
DFibRL8R
Active Member
I think the notion that Tesla doesn't have to put superchargers in major US cities because they are constrained by limited production is at odds with the fact that Tesla is expanding globally and building superchargers in cities on other continents. This suggests Tesla wants to expand their sales regardless of their current capacity to build more cars. I'm sure all the issues of space, retrofitting etc are similar in built-up cities like London or Hong Kong as they would be in major US cities.
Recharging very quickly _within_ a city would be a very limited need in the longer term, because very, very few drive a large number of miles within a small radius.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I'd like to see more third parties offering single or double stall "for fee" SCs in cities to help this need. It's probably easier to get the power run for one or two stalls and the space for the equipment in limited or expensive city real estate.
Cars spend 90% of their time parked.
As more BEVs exist, it will always be hard to develop gas station style infrastructure to fast charge them for normal use. That would require far more DC fast charge stations at great expense, especially since the electrical capacity will have to be sized for peak load. L2 destination charging, however, especially in night time parking lots (hotels, motels, street parking) will use electricity offset from the peak day usage. It makes sense that in the medium and long term, L2 destination charging is a high priority. The concept of Leaf style DC fast charging to get you around a city is a poor use of funds and material.
As more BEVs exist, it will always be hard to develop gas station style infrastructure to fast charge them for normal use. That would require far more DC fast charge stations at great expense, especially since the electrical capacity will have to be sized for peak load. L2 destination charging, however, especially in night time parking lots (hotels, motels, street parking) will use electricity offset from the peak day usage. It makes sense that in the medium and long term, L2 destination charging is a high priority. The concept of Leaf style DC fast charging to get you around a city is a poor use of funds and material.
There may be similar issues but in Europe and Asia a higher percentage of the target market is city-dwelling, and in addition (or as a result?) there are fewer multi-car households.
hill
high fiber member
The lowest SC price estimate I recall seeing on the board was $150k (no solar canopy) when broken down off multiple units - price not including maintenance, insurance & utility bill. How long 'till the convenience store owner pays down that debt, selling a few extra twinkys & got dogs.
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Tyl
Active Member
The convenience store owner pays nothing! Tesla foots the bill!! All he sees are profits!! That goes for the destination HPWC's as well. Tesla pays to have them installed. HPWC's and superchargers are fabulous deals for the landlords
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hill
high fiber member
Tesla doesn't pay for the power to the HPWC's. When you factor in demand charges every month, the deal might not be that sweet for the convenience store owner.The convenience store owner pays nothing! Tesla foots the bill!! All he sees are profits!! That goes for the destination HPWC's as well. Tesla pays to have them installed. HPWC's and superchargers are fabulous deals for the landlords
HankLloydRight
No Roads
The convenience store owner pays nothing! Tesla foots the bill!! All he sees are profits!! That goes for the destination HPWC's as well. Tesla pays to have them installed. HPWC's and superchargers are fabulous deals for the landlords
That was what I was saying.. not the Tesla sponsored HPWC or SCs., but rather independent third party vendors buying, installing, and operating a Supercharger stall or two -- FOR A FEE. Not part of the "free" Tesla SC network. But if a gas station or convenience store could invest $200k in the infrastrcture, and then charge reasonable rates for Supercharging, they probably could make their money back in 5 years or so (along with other concession sales).
In my example, the proprietor would charge for power, like at a gas station. Obviously not at hotels or other destination locations.
Right now, there's nothing stopping vendors from buying their own HPWCs and installing them as "pay" charging stations. I'm just saying, expand that to allow these folks to install pay-as-you-go Superchargers in urban or destination locations. It would make a lot of sense when planning a trip to a city or other "off highway" location to pull into town, stop at a pay SC for an hour, and get enough juice to drive whereever I needed around town for the week, and then "top off" for 30 minutes before leaving town.
When I've been travelling, finding a L2 J1772 charger that's convenient to a hotel has been problematic, specifically because I had to leave the car plugged in for many hours to get enough charge for the next day. But if I could drop $10 and supercharge in an hour, and then drive to my preferred hotel -- WELL worth the expense.
Bugeater
Member
Yea, today I had to leave my S at the Portland Tesla store charging because there are no SCs close enough to do the trick. I was down to 22 miles range and wasn't comfortable heading down to Woodburn. A supercharger in Portland would have been great! Luckily the folks at the Portland Tesla store were very happy to help me out!
Thanks folks! My car was fully charged when I picked it up this evening!!!
Thanks folks! My car was fully charged when I picked it up this evening!!!
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