Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Pezpunk]

I even speculated that btc would be on Tesla’s 10K last Friday.

You’ve got a lot of close minded people here that is automatic disagree on anything they don’t understand or care to understand.

i've built crypto mining machines, mined it, bought it, sold it, written apps related to these things. it's insulting and foolish (and simply incorrect in my case) to imply that disagreement means i don't understand it.

I generally agree with Cliffski that Bitcoin conflicts with Tesla's core mission of combating climate change, although my aversion is a lot less acute than his.

 

[corduroy]

Plot twist: Tesla gets into bitcoin mining powered by massive solar and megapacks, and it becomes their most profitable LOB.

 

[Krugerrand]

Focus. Why is Tesla Shanghai producing better made cars? That burn's my ass as a US nationalist and I'm sure,Tesla management is doing what it can. Speaking about learning from others, how about from ourselves? Are we too ill-disciplined? Do we lack pride in work? Are reward systems screwed up? Yada yada A fellow named Adam Smith wrote a book about labor here. He quoted a working man at a bar. "Why should I bust my ass for them; I won't even bust my ass for myself." Mea Culpa. The idea of opening a business for myself has always been terrifying. Investing is much easier.

Historically the Chinese have always been hard labor workers and built some significant US infrastructure back in the day. It should come as no surprise that they outshine at least some of the workers in Fremont.

Yes, a portion of the population are lazy, self-centered, what have you handed out to me lately people. But there’s more to it than just that and is best left to another forum.

 

[MTL_HABS1909]

Cathie Wood is hugely bullish on BTC. I wouldn't bet against her on her TSLA thesis or BTC.

My thoughts exactly. Everyone here says she’s a visionary as she was correct about TSLA before everyone else. Why doubt her about this? The reactions I’m seeing from a lot of people on this board are very surprising.

 

[replicant]

I own $0 bitcoin, yet I still like this purchase by Tesla. Why? Because Elon does his research. If he thinks putting $1.5B into bitcoin is a good long-term move for Tesla, then I think he is probably right. It’s obviously not a get rich quick scheme for Tesla as that is not how Elon thinks. It’s a long-term strategy that Elon thinks is good for Tesla, and so far his judgement has been very good.

From a liquidity standpoint, this is not a large investment for Tesla, but in absolute value it obviously is.

I love it!

You like this, because someone you trust did this. "I like this decision because I trust the guy who took it".

I'm a Tesla fan for many reasons but I hate the company and this forum when it behave like a church. I though Tesla was a good think "because, science!".

 

[chrsk]

Im liking this price action. However, in the longer term (starting tomorrow), I am wary of the implication on the SP volatility. I didnt like the notion that TSLA performance was tied to that of BTC due to some twisted reason. I like it even less now that Elon legitimized it. Maybe it will work wonder for option sellers. We’ll see.

Tesla placed 1,5B$ in bitcoin and is valued at around 800B$. Not sure how much negative impact it could have? Its also fair to assume that they bought at 35k$-levels, meaning they have a good gain already.

All in all I think its a smart move. With more companies embracing BTC its likely that the price of BTC will increase rather than decline going forward. A good risk/reward.

Especially with FED printing dollars in the amount never seen before.

 

[Nocturnal]

Sorry but I'm not taking anything from 'coindesk' as gospel on cryptos energy needs, they are crypto mega-cheerleaders. If tesla have temporarily ended up with so much cash they cannot spend it, give us a dividend. Don't go gambling it on the most volatile 'currency*' imaginable.

*i use the term extremely loosely here.

It’s a counter to Bloomberg’s article. I think we TSLA owners understand that Bloomberg isn’t worthy of automatic trust either. It’s not the data that matters in that article but the framing IMO. We don’t include the cost of ancillary institutions and transactions when we look at visa. (Such as ach, the fed etc)

Bitcoin probably is a bit dirtier but I think that is over stated.

 

[Paul_SF]

I think we don’t really understand the impact of the new renewable energy super grid.

In hindsight it always makes sense.

BTC is becoming the digital gold and the energy spent on securing/running the network is just the cost to have something like that.

There are other protocols that will become the protocols of everything, but BTC just got legit on becoming the digital gold.

My only problem with BTC was the energy spent to run the network. That will become a non issue in a few years.

There will probably be a Tesla protocol for payments/micropayments, with BTC in storage as collateral.

All the companies Musk is involved with need that feeless protocol and with infinite transactions. Many are working on that also.

we are seeing the roaring 20’s ramping up.

 

[j6Lpi429@3j]

The only way tesla could justify this would be to use their chip-design/DOJO skillz and their renewable energy skillz to build, and sell a totally green bitcoin mining rig that basically accelerates the mining of the final BTC (limited yes?) so that the whole thing is done and finished with.
In fact, i wouldn't be that surprised to see them do that.

 

[MXWing]

I’ve told people time and time and time again here.

Risk management dictates that 100% in BTC is foolish.

Risk management dictates that 0% in BTC is foolish.

Tesla gets it. The question is does everyone else? Finally???!!!!

Get in while you can with 1-3% of net asset in btc. It needs to be enough to matter but not enough to wipe you out if this gets somehow regulated down to zero.

 

[joh01652]

Apple may be the next notable company to buy bitcoin, RBC says

 

[wtlloyd]

I don't think you realize how much money exactly AAPL has. Panasonic market cap is 33B. LG (which holds most of LG Chem) is 27B, a few miners for all the raw materials are all under a billion dollar.

With 1/4 of AAPL's war chest, it can buy enough "strategic holding" in ALL those key companies. Which can lead to 2 things: either wreaking havoc in the EV supply chain industry or business as usual. In both cases, Apple will get their EV made.

Tesla still holds a position as market leader, but then it would either have to go to war with a company that has a nearly infinite war chest (Apple revenue was 110B last Q and growing... that can finance their EVs play for a very long time). Why go to war at all in the first place? EV is a market big enough to accommodate many players. And by adopting a different strategy, say make a Teslaconn in charge to make 3rd party EVs, there are a lot of things to gain for TSLA as a whole in the long run to achieve its mission.

And disclaimer, I am long TSLA and hold no AAPL position and has no plan to do so.

I'm just thinking, there's no need for Tesla to be cocky against the 500lb gorilla that AAPL is. It can play along nicely until it too is a 500lb gorilla.

Apple didn't accumulate $200 billion by investing in industries outside their venue. Apple is notorious for squeezing their supply chain and merciless once vendors show dependency on Apple revenue. Multiple small tier auto manufacturers are already declaring they will have nothing to do with Apple's rumored interest in developing an auto line, although participation could vault them into a tier one position amongst OEMs. Tesla has jumped far ahead of ICE manufacturers in locking up future production of batteries, raw material sources and manufacturing capability both current and planned future. This can't be said enough: Tesla has quietly locked up the majority of production potential for batteries for the next 5 years; competitors are required to go to the source and develop from scratch batteries for their own needs. Unless Apple wants to buy GM, it will take 5 years and $100 billion before Apple can start production.
This talk of Apple building a car is nonsense, they love squatting on their mountain of cash and their VERY limited vertical position of electronic products.

 

[Beltsbear]

Someone explain to me how holding bitcoin fits in with transitioning the world to renewable energy? bitcoin is an environmental DISASTER when it comes to totally wasted energy on mining. and AFAIK the cost of a bitcoin transaction in energy terms is also catastrophic.
This is a very backwards step imho, unless someone can explain to me how this is *not* wasting energy.
When mankind is 100% renewable and climate change is a solved problem, then lets waste energy on pointless math to pump up crypto, but until then, this is a stupid, stupid move. Very disappointed.

Bitcoin uses a fixed amount of power that anti-bitcoiners constantly overestimate. While if it is just used for a few transactions here and there it is wasteful, if it is used at the Visa/MC level it is not really that that wasteful. What it does is change the power structure in the financial world. You can have a store of wealth without a bank. You can do transactions without a bank. How much power does a bank branch use?

Unfortunately BTC has some flaws, and other cryptocurrencies do not when it comes to transaction bandwidth. It is fixable though but the consensus has not been there. But the moment Tesla can use BTC to pay suppliers, the world changes.

 

[X Fan]

Why not? There are more companies now that place some part of their assets in bitcoin.

To me it makes perfect sense. A hedge against inflation(if it returns, especially give the absurd amount of dollars that where printed in 2020(25%...?)) might be the most important reason.

I have done it myself with 5% of my net worth. I think its a good hedge.

Edit:
23.6% of All US Dollars Were Created in the Last Year

Its ridicules!

Although I don't own BC (yet), put me in the camp that this is a smart hedging/investing move.

The US Treasury return is pathetic (thank you US FED) and with the explosion in US debt over the last couple of years/decade there is a lot more risk owning US Treasuries than in years past.

I wouldn't turn to the Euro or the Yuan either......

btw: I've owned Gold and Silver for a while and have done quite nicely (not investing advice).

 

[john94si]

Well couldn't we start mining our own coins in the new S and X with the powerful new gaming PC built in?

 

[Beltsbear]

Plot twist: Tesla gets into bitcoin mining powered by massive solar and megapacks, and it becomes their most profitable LOB.

This actually could be useful in terms of the 'duck curve' and solar. When we build excess solar to get us through slumps. But charging electric cars with that surge would be more useful.

 

[Nrkl]

I’ve had a crazy idea for awhile that Tesla is going to end up inventing a whole new economy based on sustainable energy production and storage, backed by blockchain. I'm not smart enough to put all the pieces together, but Powerwalls and Autobidder are in there somewhere. A stake in BTC also fits—even if they wind up using a different token or inventing a new one. Gotta start somewhere.

I've been thinking along the same lines. I've been wondering after Musk's carbon sequestration tweet that maybe Tesla will end up producing a small scale carbon sequester, that you can run with the excess energy from your solar roof, and then you can earn Tesla's own digital currency per every kg of carbon you sequester.

 

[Xepa777]

It's hilarious seeing people here invest in one of the most innovative/disruptive opportunities in our lifetime with green energy technology (Tesla) yet totally fail to see the exact same (or larger) level of disruption in finance with Bitcoin. Just goes to show how many people "got lucky" or who aren't true disruption investors. I've been an investor in Tesla since 2013 and Bitcoin since 2018 (post crash). Both are big ideas that are going to change the world. Their union makes perfect sense.

The question of energy is a temporary one. And a TSLAQ-esque FUD one. We're going to have unlimited free energy by 2030. And lots of Bitcoin mining energy comes from renewable sources / leftover energy (due to Bitcoin's mechanics). And the energy-per-value of Bitcoin is less than conventional banks (when adding up the entire infrastructure + associated energy cost from JP Morgan operations).

I highly, highly encourage everyone to read this. The Case for $500K Bitcoin

 

[LiveLong&Profit]

If anyone is FOMOing, GBTC is an easy way to gain exposure (and you can buy in a tax advantaged account). Coinbase or Cashapp are other good options. Paypal sells it also.

This amount of cash in it is fairly conservative IMO. It could wind up being a significant windfall to the bottom line. My expectation is that now that Tesla has given this amount of cover then other large companies will start doing the same. I'm always skeptical of "crazy" high price targets but people like Cathie think 500k a BTC is reasonable in a few years. That would net Tesla like 10 billion. Some estimates are far higher.

If inflation is a few percent now and interest rates are near zero, holding cash long term means you lose money constantly.


Part inflation hedge, part speculative value play, part dipping their toes into Crypto in general which might become the backbone of the internet V3.

Yes to all 3:

• Inflation hedge: US and EU are de-facto embracing inflation. Why not hedge?
  
• PR/marketing: The 1st mover advantage is obvious. Other companies following suit will (rightly) be seen as copy-cats.
  
• Practice/dry-run for future Tesla-coin (or X-coin ...)

Downside:
Huge political risk long-term.
Will the US establishment stand by and let its currency being undermined like this?
I have heard it argued that some part of the strategic reasoning for going into the gulf wars was that Iraq and SA considered selling oil using a weighted basket of currency, thereby indirectly threatening the supremacy of the dollar.
(It is very nice being the worlds reserve currency: It alleviates the necessity to some degree of having a strict national budget and monetary discipline because you always have some ability to export inflation to the world.)

 

[j6Lpi429@3j]

oh for crying out loud. YES BITCOIN IS DISRUPTIVE. Well done, but that doesn't make it environmentally sustainable does it? Yet again, the bitcoin bulls are determined to paint anybody who disagrees with them as stupid. No cult is as fanatical and insulting as the crypto cult.