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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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…….Tesla was probably not necessary.
Well, I agree that Tesla was *definately* not necessary for the auto industry to change from ICE to EV starting maybe in 2020 and slowly taking until 2050 or 2060 to transition.

However, it is looking like the transition will be from 2010 to 2035-ish. IMO, that would have never happened without Tesla and Elon Musk.

GSP
 
Just spit-balling. It will be a while before we have EV trucks that can handle what an F350 can handle. Sure those trucks could stay on diesel, but who will build them if the ICE infrastructure and manufacturing base begins to collapse?
Yeah, transitioning that will be interesting if that collapse happens.

Hopefully battery cost will go down, as energy density goes up, and charging capability improves.

I suspect you could stuff 300KWh of cells in an E-350 Crewcab if it were designed from the ground up as an EV and not a repurposed ICE design. If the cost per KWh comes down, and you can use that with a Megacharger to get 80% in 15 mins, I suspect the obstacles go away for a lot of folks.
 
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Not to mention that most mass transit systems are uneconomical and heavily taxpayer subsidized.
I'll try to remember that when paying my next tax bill, since we're still subsidizing gas tanks (here in France) with plenty of fuel rebates and energy checks… I'd be curious how greater our mass transit system would be if we invested a little % of all this € into the most efficient transportation system we know of.
 
I disagree with that because I don't think Nissan was "dragged along", it incrementally improved the Leaf, but not enough and was caught out and sales didn't expand. Part of the problem was that their cell and battery investments didn't pan out.

Without volume they can't afford to build a large network. Nissan initially invested quite a chunk of money in getting CHAdeMO chargers installed, but in the USA ultimately has made a charging deal with EVGo instead.

The Ariya has been pretty well received though.
I doubt they’ll build in any amount though. We considered it as a second vehicle just because we had such good luck with our leaf. We called our old dealer and they said they won’t even have one in the lot to look at till 2025 and even then they’ll only get a few a year. I think it’s more of a “look at us, we are still green” thing. The nissan dealer in our town told us they won’t be making the up grades in their dealership that would enable them to sell electric. Not worth it for the half dozen electric cars they would sell per year.
 

A unit of Interactive Brokers Group Inc., IBKR -0.17%decrease; red down pointing triangle one of the largest U.S. retail brokerages, has been fined $5.5 million over allegations that it broke federal rules on the “naked” short selling of stocks thousands of times over a three-year period.

 

A unit of Interactive Brokers Group Inc., IBKR -0.17%decrease; red down pointing triangle one of the largest U.S. retail brokerages, has been fined $5.5 million over allegations that it broke federal rules on the “naked” short selling of stocks thousands of times over a three-year period.

^^What a shocker!
 
Nissan had decades of experimental EV's before Tesla even existed and produced the Nissan Prairie Joy in small quantities using cylindrical lithium ion cells in 1997 and of course the LEAF in 2010. We certainly wouldn't be where we are today without Tesla but EV's were inevitable once battery technology caught up.
The Leaf? Bad example! Far from an example of a EV in a non Tesla world, The Chevy Volt and the Leaf both were responses to the Tesla Roadster. Neither would have existed without it. The leaf in fact, never sold in numbers anywhere near expected, in spite of very large price reductions. It’s been a huge money loser. Far from the ability to kick off an EV shift, it actually would’ve set it back a decade probably.
 

A unit of Interactive Brokers Group Inc., IBKR -0.17%decrease; red down pointing triangle one of the largest U.S. retail brokerages, has been fined $5.5 million over allegations that it broke federal rules on the “naked” short selling of stocks thousands of times over a three-year period.

But, But, But that never happens we've been told. The Great Wall of Wall Street would never allow criminal activity like that. Mass Manipulators.
 
All of this innovative engineering change has been accomplished through a vision. Without the vision, it all dies on the vine (see several historical auto/tech references and look back at years of CES widgets/starts) where good tech died in its infancy without an enduring and cohesive vision to 'see it through'.

To be clear, Tesla doesn't just make a car, they make/engineer/design/produce 'nearly' all the innovative pieces/parts/sub-assemblies (they don't make the commodity pieces like tires, paint, various adhesives, plastic pellets, textiles, connectors or the monitors/screens, but that is another story...) vertically integrated as well as 'nearly' all of the code (I actually can't think of code they don't write themselves at the moment though, maybe some Kuka code is unaltered by Tesla devs...). And if I worked for Sandy, I'd have them put the Tesla parts in a pile and non-Tesla parts in a pile and deep dive into why Tesla hasn't done in-sourced them yet.

NO OTHER AUTOMAKERS DO THIS! (sorry to yell), but folks just don't understand this.

So, Tesla is not as much a car manufacturer, as they are "THE SOURCE" of the creation of 'nearly' all the innovation that go into the car as well as the production process, sales process, support process, update process, connectivity/services and the long standing belief that marketing is a near useless vestige of improper product/customer focus.

I'd assert: Without Tesla's vision, EVs would simply NOT exist in any meaningful/material way.
 
"And adapters keep pressure on Tesla from going too stupid on pricing" - WTH are you talking about?

What does it even mean?
Yah. Not very clear. My apologies. I suck at writing.

Adaptors allow us to charge at other DC fast chargers. And many other charge chains have cheaper charging than tesla superchargers. So adaptors allow the driver to select a less expensive charging solution. This in my opinion will keep tesla from raising their rates too high.

Hope that helps.
 
Yah. Not very clear. My apologies. I suck at writing.

Adaptors allow us to charge at other DC fast chargers. And many other charge chains have cheaper charging than tesla superchargers. So adaptors allow the driver to select a less expensive charging solution. This in my opinion will keep tesla from raising their rates too high.

Hope that helps.
And when all the EA chargers are broken or there’s a line down the block people will gladly pay double price to charge at a Tesla supercharger.
 
My wife had The Today Show news program going this morning. Big story on EVs that was pretty negative. First they talked about how expensive EVs are, with average price over $60k. Then they talked about limited ranges of around 200 miles, range loss in cold weather, and slow public charging. No mention of Tesla, Tesla network, Model Y for under $50k with IRA credit, Tesla ranges, etc. Basically said EVs are good city cars for short trips. Then they talked about how Hybrids are the best of both worlds.

The amount of mis-information on a major news network, on a subject with easy access to correct information, is just mind blowing. And we trust them on topics we know little about.... :rolleyes:
Was the show’s segment underwritten by Toyota?
 
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And Tesla management would probably respond something like: "We have no idea, why are you asking us about a different company's products and plans?"
Tesla management told us that the valuation of the company mainly comes down to autonomy and Tesla Network.

Fundamentally, Loop infrastructure benefits Tesla robotaxis on:
  • Marginal unit cost
    • $/passenger-mile
    • $/freight-mile
  • Value to the customer
    • Speed
    • Reliability and accuracy of arrival time predictions
    • Safety
    • Fewer inclement weather disruptions
    • Ride quality and comfort
      • Smoother pavement than surface roads
      • Fewer turns, less acceleration and deceleration
  • Ratio of payload miles to empty miles
  • Daily total volume of payload miles
    • Mostly because of higher speed
These advantages translate to:
  • Bigger total addressable market
  • Bigger gross margins
  • Smaller overhead operating expenses
  • Higher annual asset utilization rate
In turn, this means:
  • Faster displacement of demand for gasoline and diesel
  • Drastically higher IRR for investments in the robotaxi fleet
    • Bigger cash flows that arrive sooner
People ask Tesla about much less relevant partner companies like Hertz, SpaceX starlink and Panasonic. Boring Co is far more important as a catalyst to Tesla’s degree of future success than any other company I know about.

In addition to making Tesla robotaxis much more valuable, Boring Co’s progress has other crucial benefits.

First, it increases Elon Musk’s overall credibility when proposing new ideas, recruiting talent, and negotiating with governments and business partners. The success of SpaceX and Tesla is by now a lot more obvious than Boring Co, which many people still view as a boondoggle staining his resume. Star talent, especially engineers, want to work for a winner who makes great technology ambitions come to life. It’s important that Tesla’s Muskian sibling companies succeed massively as well as Tesla itself.

It also matters how wealthy Elon becomes. Look at all the bellyaching over him selling some billions of Tesla stock. There’s more future concern he’ll sell more for financing Twitter or a Martian colony. Well, what if his 90%+ equity in Boring Co is worth some amount comparable to his current equity in SpaceX and Tesla? That means he has more resources to work with to fund these ventures and provide a hard financial shield for Tesla from unscrupulous greedy jerks who would love to rip this company apart if given the opportunity during some hypothetical period of weakness. The oil and gas industry isn't dead yet, and they still have massive reserves of wealth and power. Meanwhile, Tesla is very strong but we're not out of the woods yet and there remains nontrivial risks of catastrophe. The more liquid wealth Elon has from other sources, the safer Tesla is from a wide variety of potential calamities. He is essentially an insurance policy for Tesla, as he clearly showed in 2008 when risking everything to make payroll. I do not want the Saudi government to try buying out the company again.

Boring Co also very well might play an explicit role in Master Plan Part 3. MPP2 focused on covering all basic forms of terrestrial transport, expanding to the mass market and deploying robotaxis. MPP3 is about rapidly scaling to extreme size. Boring likewise has ambitions for rapid, extreme scaling and as discussed above, Loop infrastructure will help multiply Tesla’s scaling when measured as miles per year of ICE driving displaced. As we await more information to be disclosed about Tesla’s vehicle model plans for the rest of this decade, I would be shocked if Boring Co integration is not a part of it. Tesla/Boring still have not delivered on high-occupancy vehicles for the Vegas Loop (largely because the Ys are meeting the need for the current system) and surely a smaller one-seater or two-seater pod is going to be made eventually to serve the vast majority of trips where one person wants to go from A to B with privacy and minimal inconvenience or delay. Tesla is the only company that might plausibly be working on such vehicles.
 
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ECON 101 w. Prof. Ferguson: Class is now in session.


FmpsbKlX0AEqebi


Mid-term exams are in just 8 days. Study the basics, folks (it's a long term).

Cheers to the Longs!
A slight question with 'the basics'. Generic macroeconomics does not consider or explain market dynamics that are not explicitly economic. Thus, most people think the odd price elasticity charts are accurate even when dealing with premium products. In quite a few cases price reductions can result in permanent brand pricing power destruction. Listing only a couple of examples:
Tumi- was a strongly positioned luggage maker until they began to discount and even sell excess production through discounters. Net result was to end out sold to Samsonite. Wisely Samsonite billed it as a coup and recouped a little of the cachet.
Fiorucci and Alexander McQueen for Target. Short term is has been great for them, but their highest business alley disappeared.

There are many car examples, nearly all of which coincided with reduced success, price cuts, then loss of innovation, the failure, nearly all succeeded in good times and died in recessions:
Prince, in 1946 maker of the first EV in japan, the 1946 Tama, followed by a succession of high performance as successful cars but limited R&D so... In a recession they were acquired by Nissan, is a good example.

From Horch, Packard and Pierce-Arrow to modern cases of Jaguar, Lamborghini and not-quite so modern ones such as Douglas aircraft the common elements are engaging in price competition to increase volumes, followed by reduced loyalty from customers, followed by reduced profits, reduced innovation and failure.

Every single case has major contribution from multiple factors.

Even the McDonnell Douglas effective takeover of Boeing was followed by obsession stock price obsession, reduced investment and oversight coupled with equally obsessive price competition. Formally Boeing has not failed, but the litany of the last years shows that it survives only because it, like GM, really cannot be allowed to fail.

The truth of all this is that many factors combine to produce success or failure.

A singular simplistic view of simple price elasticity, together with a simple undergraduate supply/price curve misses the entire point. That axis does have value, it represents accurately sourcing decision for commodities. For completely generic products it even represents relative purchase decisions between brands. Even there Kleenex has pricing advantage over store brands, even when the two are identical. The famous Costco stories usually include finding out what company produces their brands more cheaply.

Zero doubt, price is a fundamental influence. It is NOT, repeat NOT the only major factor.

In many cases price si indeed a factor, when higher price conveys exclusivity. Coach handbags, watches, jewelry, cars.

The absolute perfect example for this is the VW Phaeton vs Bentley Continental. They were identical! The Phaeton died a sad death, the Continental transformed Bentley.

None of this, I repeat, has price as the only factor but it clearly shows that perfect price elasticity of demand is absolutely incorrect, except in true community sourcing decisions.

It is absolutely true that ability to pay does establish limits in total accessible market. Even there, we should examine the Bentley Continental. When launched nearly everyone though a car priced at US $150,000 had a tiny market:

Bentley Continental GT (2003)​

Few cars were more eagerly anticipated than the Bentley Continental GT in 2003. The Crewe-based company had been building barely 1000 cars per year, so what would its new parent company Volkswagen do to improve on that? The resulting Continental GT was just the ticket thanks to its sleek coupe looks, four-seat cabin and, of course, the twin-turbo 6.0-litre W12 engine with 552bhp. No wonder 3200 customers put down deposits before the car was even launched.
Another first for Bentley was four-wheel drive in the Continental GT that helped make this a year-round daily driver for many of the thousands who flocked to the Flying B’s showrooms. In its first year, 6896 Continentals were sold and more than 40,000 of the first generation left the production line including the convertible GTC. Without the Continental GT, Bentley would likely be another British marque left to history books alone.

This car and the sedan version made the entire US >$100,000 car maker rise by over 100%.
So much for price/demand charts! FWIW, at that time, 1992, I was doing marketing consulting work for VW. Based on everything we knew then it was quite silly to try to sell a VW-branded twin, especially since the entire success depending on attracting more people to buy in that price class than and ever been done before. Frdinand Piëch was determined to upgrade yje Volkswagen brand despite its very name. Their version survived for a long time with constant downgrades, and was given mercy killing in 2016.

The moral of all this is that price positioning does matter, but it is only a single factor in a complex equation. However,


Price changes do definitely influence decision timing and can increase or decrease total addressable market. Engaging in direct price promotions and end of period promotions on price can and do help decrease pricing power. To that extent aggressively positioning pricing changes as some version of cost-plus does diminish brand image and pricing power.

The latest Tesla changes and those now happening fairly often as quarter end promotions are not likely to benefit Tesla, apart from a short term boost. Tesla is now trained customers to buy only when promotions happen. This is very unfortunate.

Whatever happens with earnings Tesla is diminishing it's cachet.

Offering lower priced products is time honored even with highly successful brands, including Ferrari and Porsche, both highly profitable and both having dealers which tend to use leasing promotions more than retail sales promotions, a time-honored way of promoting expensive products without obviously reducing prices. From Rolls-Royce, McLaren, Porsche to Cessna Citation, HondaJet, Dassault Falcon and Gulfstream they all use leasing based promotions and add other incentives from options to customized features and similar tactics.

Tesla desperately needs highly professional customer service, investor relations, and marketing (BTW, that is NOT likely to include advertising, but does include product placement). The company is now too large to exclude professional support services.
 
Well Ghosen's other problems aside... while he may have been a fan of EV's, his execution left something to be desired. It was a bit of a weirdmobile and had bad pack thermal management.

One of the things Elon realized that really pushed things forward was that you had to make EV's practical, performant, affordable, and stylish. Then they'll appeal to the masses as a whole, and not just a tree-hugging[1] segment that's willing to drive something that looks like a bug to save the environment.

[1] I don't use that term pejoratively, and happily count myself amongst those who think trees are pretty darn cool...
That's mainly because Ghosen tried to do it on the cheap, likely because he had to show a profit the first year. So take an existing body, add some batteries, fix the design in areas that didn't work. (The bug eyes are because without them the wind noise was terrible).
 
Of greatest note was visiting my 10-year-old cousin. I had not talked with my cousin about Tesla ever before. Her parents drive plug-in hybrids so she is familiar with the basic EV experience. Upper middle class suburb of major US metro area. According to her, the entire neighborhood of kids wants Teslas. I was informed that Lambos and their ilk are no longer cool and kids only want Tesla or maybe Rolls Royce. After our joy ride, she told her friends on the block, “It’s cooler than you think”. Other kids were staring, apparently enamored when we pulled out. Dropped her off at school and the volunteer kid at the drop-off line who saw her in it was smirking because she was riding in it which no one expected. Another quote from our joy ride: “All these other cars look so old”. Zero mention, positive negative or neutral, of Elon, but lots of questions and commentary about the car itself for about a half hour straight. My cousin is one person but the entire neighborhood has an overwhelmingly high net positive rating on the Tesla brand for the kids. They are probably not alone nationwide in feeling this way since we have a fairly geographically homogeneous youth culture nowadays thanks to TV and the internet and long-distance travel. If their neighborhood is at all representative of what other kids are thinking then that’s a great sign for Tesla’s future
Now multiple this effect by 2-3 when the Cybertruck comes out. Lots of old school pickup truck buys will hate it, but most people under 30 will be fine with it. Under 20 will love it. It’s a breath of fresh air in a boring market.