Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Yes. Just like you want Tesla to be forced to join the union.
Sweden’s government is a dictatorship, no?
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Tesla Unionization
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
Sweden’s government is a dictatorship, no?
2daMoon said:
"If the idea is to make the workplace, conditions, and salary better, then come to the table with examples of how the company isn't meeting those standards and work from there."
To all I can gather from the info on this forum and other sources this is not the reason for IF Metal to pressure (bully) Tesla. The working conditions at Tesla are irrelevant for this conflict. The fact that Tesla is not signing the agreement is the point. To all I can see the few workers at Tesla who are striking are doing so because IF Metal told them so, not because of the working conditions.
In my opinion the fact that Tesla is perceived to be 'owned' by the richest man in the world (actually not true, Putin is) will rise the hackles of almost any union member and they will gladly strike against him - regardless of the merit or consequences of the strike. I think that IF Metal is counting on this. So, actual facts and conditions are pretty useless here - the 'feeling' of who has more power - The multy-billionaire or the working stiff is the real deal here. It appears that in Sweden normally the 'working stiff' gets the power - at least on paper. Hence "sign the agreement or else . . ." Even though by today the 'Working Stiff' might be represented (or not) by a corrupt self serving union. That will have to be decided by the Swedish people themselves.
"If the idea is to make the workplace, conditions, and salary better, then come to the table with examples of how the company isn't meeting those standards and work from there."
To all I can gather from the info on this forum and other sources this is not the reason for IF Metal to pressure (bully) Tesla. The working conditions at Tesla are irrelevant for this conflict. The fact that Tesla is not signing the agreement is the point. To all I can see the few workers at Tesla who are striking are doing so because IF Metal told them so, not because of the working conditions.
In my opinion the fact that Tesla is perceived to be 'owned' by the richest man in the world (actually not true, Putin is) will rise the hackles of almost any union member and they will gladly strike against him - regardless of the merit or consequences of the strike. I think that IF Metal is counting on this. So, actual facts and conditions are pretty useless here - the 'feeling' of who has more power - The multy-billionaire or the working stiff is the real deal here. It appears that in Sweden normally the 'working stiff' gets the power - at least on paper. Hence "sign the agreement or else . . ." Even though by today the 'Working Stiff' might be represented (or not) by a corrupt self serving union. That will have to be decided by the Swedish people themselves.
And, into this I'll throw another point.
First off: I'm not a particular Musk-Liker. Wish he had never bought Twitter, but, even before then, he was showing signs of zaniness.
Having said that: Musk is worth what he is because, mostly, Tesla has been wildly successful.
If Tesla had underpaid their workers, treated them like dung, had workplace accidents like mad, and/or pick-multiple-corporate-evil-practices-we-have-all-heard-of, Tesla likely would have been unionized, or attempted to be unionized, for good reason, early on. And, in the process of of becoming unionized or, having once been unionized, would have fallen prey to the atherosclerosis of the corporate arteries that another layer of management that unions bring to the party necessarily entails, which would have either killed the company or slowed it down.. a lot. In which case Musk wouldn't be as rich as he is now.
In fact, then, a good reason that Musk is as rich as he is is precisely because the staff is treated more-or-less right, or better than right.
That's an OK argument.. but I do remember when a bunch of SpaceX employees committed lese majeste against Musk and got fired for their trouble; and that, apparently, happened at Twitter, too. So the above isn't a completely solid argument. But, still. Unlike most multi-billionaires, he's actually trying to save the planet, and the employees pick up on that.
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AFAIK no Tesla employees have asked for a collective agreement. 12-34 are on strike because they belong to the union and the union has told them they need to strike.
Has there been any evidence to the contrary?
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
TL : DR For anyone wanting to catch up on the timeline of this crazy Sweden story without going through this whole thread, SMR provides the summation,
johnnycnote
Member
2daMoon
Mostly Harmless
I should have put this here instead of replying in the Investment Thread, so, I've moved it ...
I'm beginning to think the UAW is run by Luddites and they have set a goal of leading the entire auto industry to bankruptcy. Granted, they will have the highest wages ever as they drive their employers out of business.
Such strategies (or lack thereof) don't mesh well with first principles (or principled) thinkers.
Fortunately, first principles thinking seems to be a form of beneficial contagion for those associated with Tesla at every level and has the side-effect of immunity from the sort of short-sighted persuasion the UAW may be offering.
The sheer audacity for a union to presume they are needed beyond any shadow of doubt, without ever actually identifying an existing issue, appears as a form of rampant insanity on par with so many failed human endeavors (Jim Jones' Kool-aid stand comes to mind).
This sort of group-think should work just as well for union members as it has for any others who have blindly followed an authority figure without first applying logic and reason. Unfortunately, that isn't how the human mind works by default, one must choose to thwart such deeply ingrained instincts. Hense the slow but sure dwindling membership in the UAW as rational thought has worked its way through the ranks of auto workers.
I'm beginning to think the UAW is run by Luddites and they have set a goal of leading the entire auto industry to bankruptcy. Granted, they will have the highest wages ever as they drive their employers out of business.
Such strategies (or lack thereof) don't mesh well with first principles (or principled) thinkers.
Fortunately, first principles thinking seems to be a form of beneficial contagion for those associated with Tesla at every level and has the side-effect of immunity from the sort of short-sighted persuasion the UAW may be offering.
The sheer audacity for a union to presume they are needed beyond any shadow of doubt, without ever actually identifying an existing issue, appears as a form of rampant insanity on par with so many failed human endeavors (Jim Jones' Kool-aid stand comes to mind).
This sort of group-think should work just as well for union members as it has for any others who have blindly followed an authority figure without first applying logic and reason. Unfortunately, that isn't how the human mind works by default, one must choose to thwart such deeply ingrained instincts. Hense the slow but sure dwindling membership in the UAW as rational thought has worked its way through the ranks of auto workers.
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Swedish Public Radio managed to find a Tesla employee to talk about the strike:
sverigesradio.se
The Tesla technician works despite the strike: "Disappointed in the union"
Published today at 12:30 p.m
There is still no solution in sight for the infected conflict between IF Metall and Tesla.
A Tesla employee technician that Ekot spoke with is critical of the union's fight for a collective agreement, and chooses to continue working despite the strike.
"If I hadn't liked my job, if it had been as toxic as they describe, then I would have changed jobs," he tells Ekot.
The technician, who does not want his name to be made public, does not support the union's demand for a collective agreement. He thinks that the conditions he now has are good enough.
- When I had a job that had a collective agreement, the wages were set based on a wage table. This feels nicer because if you do something well, you get a reward, he says.
The technician has previously been a member of the union for 10 years, but chose to leave shortly before the strike broke out in October.
- They didn't ask us how we are. I think that if you start a conflict this big, you should have been asked that question. The union has visited us several times but never asked any questions about how we are doing. They have only asked us to sign and turn their heels when they get a no. I felt betrayed.
Veli-Pekka Säikkälä is contract secretary at IF Metall and does not share the Tesla technician's view of a lack of dialogue between unions and employees before the strike.
- We have recruited members and that recruitment also includes talk about collective agreements. We have had member meetings, but my impression is that there have been broad meetings where they talked about the aim being to get a collective agreement, says Veli-Pekka Säikkälä, contract secretary at IF Metall.
Tesla-teknikern jobbar trots strejken: “Besviken på facket” - Nyheter (Ekot)
Än finns ingen lösning i sikte på den infekterade konflikten mellan IF Metall och Tesla.En Tesla-anställd tekniker som Ekot pratat med är kritisk mot fackets ...
sverigesradio.se
The Tesla technician works despite the strike: "Disappointed in the union"
Published today at 12:30 p.m
There is still no solution in sight for the infected conflict between IF Metall and Tesla.
A Tesla employee technician that Ekot spoke with is critical of the union's fight for a collective agreement, and chooses to continue working despite the strike.
"If I hadn't liked my job, if it had been as toxic as they describe, then I would have changed jobs," he tells Ekot.
The technician, who does not want his name to be made public, does not support the union's demand for a collective agreement. He thinks that the conditions he now has are good enough.
- When I had a job that had a collective agreement, the wages were set based on a wage table. This feels nicer because if you do something well, you get a reward, he says.
The technician has previously been a member of the union for 10 years, but chose to leave shortly before the strike broke out in October.
- They didn't ask us how we are. I think that if you start a conflict this big, you should have been asked that question. The union has visited us several times but never asked any questions about how we are doing. They have only asked us to sign and turn their heels when they get a no. I felt betrayed.
Veli-Pekka Säikkälä is contract secretary at IF Metall and does not share the Tesla technician's view of a lack of dialogue between unions and employees before the strike.
- We have recruited members and that recruitment also includes talk about collective agreements. We have had member meetings, but my impression is that there have been broad meetings where they talked about the aim being to get a collective agreement, says Veli-Pekka Säikkälä, contract secretary at IF Metall.
An interview in Swedish. A lot of material. At around 5.40 he confirms that other workers are saying that they have gotten threatening messages that they will not get new jobs and that they fear for their safety from mobs.
sverigesradio.se
Därför väljer Tesla-teknikern att inte strejka | Studio ett - Ekot fördjupning
En Tesla-anställd tekniker som Ekot pratat med är kritisk mot fackets kamp för kollektivavtal, och väljer att trots strejken fortsätta arbeta.
sverigesradio.se
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
And according to Metall's own paper Dagens Arbete, more than half of the mechanics at Tesla in Sweden are on strike. If this is indeed correct, and as I have understood Elon, then this means that Elon himself thinks that signing a Collective agreement with Metall is the correct course of action here.
In Swedish:
da.se
In Swedish:
Så många strejkar på Tesla – IF Metall går ut med siffra
Tesla hävdar att över 90 procent av personalen arbetar, trots strejken. Nu går IF Metall ut med en egen siffra.
da.se
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
An interview in Swedish. A lot of material. At around 5.40 he confirms that other workers are saying that they have gotten threatening messages that they will not get new jobs and that they fear for their safety from mobs.
Därför väljer Tesla-teknikern att inte strejka | Studio ett - Ekot fördjupning
En Tesla-anställd tekniker som Ekot pratat med är kritisk mot fackets kamp för kollektivavtal, och väljer att trots strejken fortsätta arbeta.
No he doesn't. I've listened to that as well. He says that he as heard of people getting one or several sms-messages. But who's sending them. He says nothing about that. For all I know it could be someone working for the Russian embassy in Sweden... If those sms-messages even exists that is.
According to the reporter that guy is a 'senior technician'. So he's likely gotten quite a lot of compensation from Tesla's stock program. It also sounds like he's got a good salary. Could it be that it is mostly mechanics that have more recently been hired that are on strike?
And again:
According to Metall's own paper more than half of the mechanics at Tesla are on strike.
So you're saying Tesla employees should put this to a vote? Not IF Metall members, but Tesla Employees.And according to Metall's own paper Dagens Arbete, more than half of the mechanics at Tesla in Sweden are on strike. If this is indeed correct, and as I have understood Elon, then this means that Elon himself thinks that signing a Collective agreement with Metall is the correct course of action here.
In Swedish:
Så många strejkar på Tesla – IF Metall går ut med siffra
Tesla hävdar att över 90 procent av personalen arbetar, trots strejken. Nu går IF Metall ut med en egen siffra.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Ok. So now it's not about the mechanics in Sweden anymore. No it's about all employees. All employees at Tesla in Sweden or worldwide? Moving the goal posts are we?
I took it as the Tesla SWEDEN employees.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
chiller
Member
Did we read the same article? It is clear that less than half are on strike, or else they would have said that. Instead, they say that over half are members and that some members are not on strike.And according to Metall's own paper Dagens Arbete, more than half of the mechanics at Tesla in Sweden are on strike. If this is indeed correct, and as I have understood Elon, then this means that Elon himself thinks that signing a Collective agreement with Metall is the correct course of action here.
In Swedish:
Så många strejkar på Tesla – IF Metall går ut med siffra
Tesla hävdar att över 90 procent av personalen arbetar, trots strejken. Nu går IF Metall ut med en egen siffra.
It is not correct.
For starters that isn't what they said. He flat out refuses to say how many are participating in the strike. Why would that be? Maybe because it doesn't support their narrative. But even then he likely isn't truthful:
He said he can't go into that. Is it illegal to share specifics? Or is it just that he won't go into it? (Assuming that the can't/won't wasn't a translation issue.)
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