Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

[MS-Alec]

Legal fiduciary responsibility is between you and the seller (Tom) of the house. The legal fiduciary responsibility of Musk is with regard to the original buyer of the house. So you would have to sue the original buyer (Tom), who could then go after Musk.

Does the statement from Tesla service people makes this any different? - "You would loose it anyway after the ownership transfer is complete"

 

[swegman]

Anyone here who purchased a car from Tesla, preferably used, can pull down their EULA? Is it even exist?

Tesla updates licenses, and terms often and only posts what is current. You will need to check the wayback system to try to find what is applicable to your car. It find someone tgst has a copy of the original documents.

For example, my car has an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drive unit, and the licenses at the time of purchase did not specify that one must keep the firmware versions current. However, checking my page in Tesla now states the battery/drive unit warranty is 8 years or 150K miles and I am required to keep the firmware versions current to maintain the warranty. Which is why I recommend that you download the original documents at the time of purchase.

 

[MS-Alec]

I am more baffled by the fact that when something like this happens, the first thing that goes through a person's mind is sue sue sue, class action, where are the lawyers.

Believe me, I've tried talk to Tesla at least several times - made two service appointments with this specific issue and called once, as well as tried to resolve it via a famous email support. All of that led to one resolution - you pay us $7k and we will enable it again. I will try to reach out the Electric, as well as Inside EV , but at this point- Yes, sue sue sue.

 

[MS-Alec]

Tesla updates licenses, and terms often and only posts what is current. You will need to check the wayback system to try to find what is applicable to your car. It find someone tgst has a copy of the original documents.

For example, my car has an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drive unit, and the licenses at the time of purchase did not specify that one must keep the firmware versions current. However, checking my page in Tesla now states the battery/drive unit warranty is 8 years or 150K miles and I am required to keep the firmware versions current to maintain the warranty. Which is why I recommend that you download the original documents at the time of purchase.

At service center I was told that powertrain warranty is 8 years, unlimited miles, which surprisingly is including 12v battery as well!

 

[swegman]

I think people miss this important part - I have called to Tesla as their current customer (a couple weeks ago) and asked for the Monroney sticker and they sent me it, were EAP and FSDC clearly on it!
Tesla had every opportunity to remove it and modify the sticker before sending me but they didn't.
I think they remove FUSC- I was enjoying it within 3 weeks before a transfer occurred. I even called to confirm FUSC before the transfer and was told - yes, you have it.
I'm not complaining about that, since I have nothing in writing to prove them wrong, and letting it go.
FSDC-hell, no, I will not give up without a big battle.

When you called Tesla, did you expressly tell them you just bought the car from a 3rd party non-Tesla dealer that bought the car at auction and you want the Monroney sheet to determine the features on the car as it was sold to you by a non-Tesla dealer? Or did you just say you want the Monroney sheet of your car.

Another issue is that most Tesla employees are clueless about the car and what transfers with a 3rd party car sale and what does not transfer with a 3rd party car sale. One can argue in court that the Tesla reps are agents of Tesla and thus, their representations (if in writing) are required to be honored by Tesla under agency law, but Tesla would likely argue that any such written representations were beyond the scope of their employment. Any oral statement is worthless in court.

 

[Evoforce]

Bottom line IMO, Tesla should not be doing this period. If someone paid for the features or was given it, no matter what, it sticks with the car. In my mind that is what is fair. It has a slimy feeling and it is very hard for the consumer to tell just what they are getting with the current, and what appears to be, a money grubbing issue. It is already hard enough to get car information with the privacy laws the way that they are...

 

[Battpower]

Tesla updates licenses, and terms often and only posts what is current. You will need to check the wayback system to try to find what is applicable to your car. It find someone tgst has a copy of the original documents.

For example, my car has an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drive unit, and the licenses at the time of purchase did not specify that one must keep the firmware versions current. However, checking my page in Tesla now states the battery/drive unit warranty is 8 years or 150K miles and I am required to keep the firmware versions current to maintain the warranty. Which is why I recommend that you download the original documents at the time of purchase.

Unless you get those notarized by Tesla at the time of sale, what proof do you have what version applies to your purchase?

Making a change the day (or hour) before you buy (pay deposit? Make final payment? Take delivery? Pass the 7 day return period for new cars or legally mandated 14 day return period for goods purchased on Internet - for UK customers?) then if they didn't point out those changes you could only realistically have purchased the car based on representations and information given leading up to making the purchase.

 

[swegman]

At service center I was told that powertrain warranty is 8 years, unlimited miles, which surprisingly is including 12v battery as well!

If the service center told you that, they are wrong, which proves my earlier statement that they are clueless. Tesla cars do NOT have a power drivetrain warranty. They have an 8 year HV battery pack warranty and a drive unit warranty. And the 12 volt battery is not covered for 8 years unless you have the “extended warranty” (which Tesla calls something else), in which case you will be responsible for the $200 deductible of the plan.

 

[MS-Alec]

Unfortunately, pictures showing Summon and NoA does not automatically translate as having FSD. Tesla has changed the feature set of their cars so many times I can’t keep up with it. At one time some features were standard with AP. Then they required that you get EAP to get features previously part of AP. Then they did the same for FSD. My model 3 has Summon and NoA which was part of EAP at the time of my purchase in 2018. Cars sold today have to buy FSD I believe to get those features. It tortures ones mind to know what features come with what package (AP, EAP, FSD) without knowing the date of manufacture of the car. This certainly contributes to issues with what features are on a car.

Showing it on the Monroney sheet is indicative of the car having FSD for the original purchaser ONLY. Once Tesla gets back possession of the car one can no longer rely on the Monroney sheet for the features of the car.

When you called Tesla for the Monroney sheet did you EXPRESSLY indicate to them that you were looking to buy the car or had just purchased the car from a non-Tesla dealer? Or did you just call Tesla and say you wanted a copy of the Monroney sheet? Did you EXPRESSLY tell Tesla you were buying (or bought) the car from. Non-Tesla dealer snd want to know the feature set on the car?

Im not trying to be hard on you. It’s just based on 7+ years dealing with a Tesla, I have learned it is necessary to ask very specific questions, and then verify the answers with at least 2 other Tesla representatives. Like with the IRS, if you ask the same question to Tesla 3 times, you are likely to get 3 different answers.

You are correct - startind from late 2018 or early 2019 Tesla no longer offers EAP (Summon and NoA were part of that) and replaced it with offering AP and FSD, and now Summon and NoA part of FSDC.
Tesla will not release almost anything unless you are their customer and when I called I specifically asked for my, already purchased car from 3rd party dealer, and after verifying my identity they emailed it to me.
My insurance company wanted the sticker, since there is no way to determine by VIN what options my car had in a case of total loss.

 

[Battpower]

purchased used 2017 Tesla MS on 12/20/19, from 3rd party dealership (not Tesla), who purchased it from Tesla through the auction house on 11/15/19. The car had FSDC Autopilot.

I have lost track. So Tesla sell a car off through auction. It happens to be a car that appears at some time to have had FSD. While Tesla owned the car and before sending it off to auction, it sounds as though they decided to strip off FSD. So far so good.

If Tesla made no specific representation to the auction house that the car was sold with FSD, (and even if they had, would the auction house have cared enough to check what that meant?) then the auction house would have been unlikely to make any such undertaking to the dealer who bought it. Even if by a miracle the dealer knew what the value of fsd was (they are way ahead of me if they do know that!) then the dealer would have got some evidence showing what they bought. This is unlikely to have happened.

So non-contractual checks back to ill-informed Tesla staff who happened to have slightly out of date info, produced incorrect information which was taken by the purchaser as proof of fsd being included with the car.

Could that be a valid synopsis?

 

[Battpower]

Tesla will not release almost anything unless you are their customer and when I called I specifically asked for my, already purchased car from 3rd party dealer, and after verifying my identity they emailed it to me.

I know first hand that this is the case - that until the car is yours, Tesla won't give out any info. In one case I was asking for details about a CPO car still owned by Tesla, and they (multiple staff and different locations) said they couldn't even provide that!

However, your statement suggests that by the time Tesla gave you their statement of the car's spec, you were already the owner of the car, so their information was not used in making the decision to buy the car.

 

[Battpower]

What does FSDC stand for?

Full Self Driving Car?
Full Self Driving Capable?
Something else?

Just asking, because capable does not mean the car has FSD. Just that it is capable of having it. At least on the car specs I looked at some showed Full Self Driving Capable as well as Full Self Driving. Two separate items.

Might be relevant.

 

[swegman]

I have lost track. So Tesla sell a car off through auction. It happens to be a car that appears at some time to have had FSD. While Tesla owned the car and before sending it off to auction, it sounds as though they decided to strip off FSD. So far so good.

If Tesla made no specific representation to the auction house that the car was sold with FSD, (and even if they had, would the auction house have cared enough to check what that meant?) then the auction house would have been unlikely to make any such undertaking to the dealer who bought it. Even if by a miracle the dealer knew what the value of fsd was (they are way ahead of me if they do know that!) then the dealer would have got some evidence showing what they bought. This is unlikely to have happened.

So non-contractual checks back to ill-informed Tesla staff who happened to have slightly out of date info, produced incorrect information which was taken by the purchaser as proof of fsd being included with the car.

Could that be a valid synopsis?

You got it. That appears to basically be it. Based on my understanding there does not appear to be any writing from Tesla to the auction house, nor any writing from the auction house to the non-Tesla dealer, nor any writing from the non-Tesla dealer to the OP (the purchaser of the car from the non-Tesla dealer) as to the features included in the car he was buying.

The purchaser also indicated the non-Tesla dealer noted the disappearance of Summon and NoA after updating the car’s firmware, but did not bother to investigate the matter or tell the purchaser. That was a mistake by the non-Tesla dealer (maybe an innocent mistake or maybe they knew what was happening and remained silent hoping the purchaser would not notice). The second mistake was the purchaser not investigating the loss of Summon and NoA prior to signing the AS-IS purchase papers.

 

[drtimhill]

Tesla being Tesla! It's sad that they resort to removing features from third-party buyers. Once they sell the car at auction (or wherever that may be) they no longer OWN it, its someone's car and they shouldn't think they have the ability to remove features. That's so ignorant that they removed FSD. I don't know what the hell is going on at Tesla but they need to rethink this its stupid. When some unsuspecting buyer purchases a car from a third party dealer (for a hefty price) and they were shown a window sticker that proves that the vehicle was purchased with FSD then Tesla REMOVES because it's a third-party car how do they expect the owner to feel?!?!? that's dumb and downright shady. Tesla STOP it, it's not funny this time.

I'm on the fence with this one. Let's think about regular hardware features, like (say) the engine in an ICE car. If I buy a used car that originally had a 2.8L engine, but find when I get it home it only has a 1.8L engine, what should I think, and who should I blame?

-- The monroney only says what the car had when it was new. It's no guarantee whatsoever what the car has when it changes owners later. It has no relevance (except to show that something changed from when the car was new).
-- I certainly cannot blame the manufacturer. How can a car maker possibly control what changes are made to the car during its lifetime?
-- What about the seller? If it was a private sale I'm pretty much out of luck .. caveat emptor. If it was a dealer then it comes down to what the sale contract says. If the dealer implied/specified it had the 2.8L engine, then yes, I have a case against the dealer (good luck with that).

So what about software enabled content? It's no different, imho. I looked carefully at the contracts etc before I bought my Tesla, and so far as I can figure out (I'm not a lawyer) software content is associated with the car via its VIN, not me as the purchaser. So if/when I sell my Tesla (privately) the software content goes with it (and I can get some extra $$ for selling a car with FSD). Again, this makes sense. If I buy after-market brake calipers for my car, the new owner gets them when I sell the car.

So what it really comes down to in this case is, what precisely did Tesla sell to the dealer from which the OP bought the car? If the dealer has documents stating that Tesla sold the car with FSD, then both the dealer and the OP have a case against Tesla (which they absolutely should make good on). If, otoh, Tesla sold the car without FSD, then the OP needs to fix this with the dealer, who mis-represented the sale.

Having said that, I agree that de-contenting the car post-sale is plain stupid and does Tesla far more harm in lost goodwill than the $7k that they might or might not get from selling a new FSD package for the car. If they sold the car without FSD then yes, they are within their rights, but foolish.

If I were the OP I would try to get a copy of the sale documents from Tesla to the dealer. Whatever the outcome this whole thing sucks for everyone.

 

[Battpower]

You got it. That appears to basically be it. Based on my understanding there does not appear to be any writing from Tesla to the auction house, nor any writing from the auction house to the non-Tesla dealer, nor any writing from the non-Tesla dealer to the OP (the purchaser of the car from the non-Tesla dealer) as to the features included in the car he was buying.

The purchaser also indicated the non-Tesla dealer noted the disappearance of Summon and NoA after updating the car’s firmware, but did not bother to investigate the matter or tell the purchaser. That was a mistake by the non-Tesla dealer (maybe an innocent mistake or maybe they knew what was happening and remained silent hoping the purchaser would not notice). The second mistake was the purchaser not investigating the loss of Summon and NoA prior to signing the AS-IS purchase papers.

Phew. Thank goodness. I can go to bed now!

 

[Battpower]

I'm on the fence with this one. Let's think about regular hardware features, like (say) the engine in an ICE car. If I buy a used car that originally had a 2.8L engine, but find when I get it home it only has a 1.8L engine, what should I think, and who should I blame?

-- The monroney only says what the car had when it was new. It's no guarantee whatsoever what the car has when it changes owners later. It has no relevance (except to show that something changed from when the car was new).
-- I certainly cannot blame the manufacturer. How can a car maker possibly control what changes are made to the car during its lifetime?
-- What about the seller? If it was a private sale I'm pretty much out of luck .. caveat emptor. If it was a dealer then it comes down to what the sale contract says. If the dealer implied/specified it had the 2.8L engine, then yes, I have a case against the dealer (good luck with that).

So what about software enabled content? It's no different, imho. I looked carefully at the contracts etc before I bought my Tesla, and so far as I can figure out (I'm not a lawyer) software content is associated with the car via its VIN, not me as the purchaser. So if/when I sell my Tesla (privately) the software content goes with it (and I can get some extra $$ for selling a car with FSD). Again, this makes sense. If I buy after-market brake calipers for my car, the new owner gets them when I sell the car.

So what it really comes down to in this case is, what precisely did Tesla sell to the dealer from which the OP bought the car? If the dealer has documents stating that Tesla sold the car with FSD, then both the dealer and the OP have a case against Tesla (which they absolutely should make good on). If, otoh, Tesla sold the car without FSD, then the OP needs to fix this with the dealer, who mis-represented the sale.

Having said that, I agree that de-contenting the car post-sale is plain stupid and does Tesla far more harm in lost goodwill than the $7k that they might or might not get from selling a new FSD package for the car. If they sold the car without FSD then yes, they are within their rights, but foolish.

If I were the OP I would try to get a copy of the sale documents from Tesla to the dealer. Whatever the outcome this whole thing sucks for everyone.

Kind of agree with your approach, but here there is something different going on in so much as Tesla are - to continue your analogy - habitually rebuilding cars so that the spec of a particulate VIN is changing. What started out as a 2.8litre really is changing into a different spec of car at the hands of the original manufacturer. I don't believe there is a parallel in the ICE world, where cars were bought back by the original manufacturer and re spec'd to be sold on. And even less so if, say, a model turned out to have a problematic engine so the manufacturer bought those cars back to mitigate their liability, fitted a different engine spec and then resold the cars with their revised spec.

 

[Sherlo]

Tesla updates licenses, and terms often and only posts what is current. You will need to check the wayback system to try to find what is applicable to your car. It find someone tgst has a copy of the original documents.

For example, my car has an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drive unit, and the licenses at the time of purchase did not specify that one must keep the firmware versions current. However, checking my page in Tesla now states the battery/drive unit warranty is 8 years or 150K miles and I am required to keep the firmware versions current to maintain the warranty. Which is why I recommend that you download the original documents at the time of purchase.

If you didn’t keep originals, you can also request them from [email protected]. That’s what I did and received them the next day.

 

[thenaimis]

-- I certainly cannot blame the manufacturer. How can a car maker possibly control what changes are made to the car during its lifetime?

Pardon? With over the air updates, that's precisely the issue here.

(also by refusing to franchise sales or service, refusing to sell parts to 1st or 3rd parties, and by refusing to service vehicles that are modified, but that's not on topic)

 

[swegman]

If you didn’t keep originals, you can also request them from [email protected]. That’s what I did and received them the next day.

I would not trust the accuracy of any documents supplied by Tesla (or any other entity) years after the first sale unless those documents included my signature or initials on each and every sheet provided to me.

As an attorney, I routinely sign or initial plus date and indicate the time of said signing on all legal papers.

 

[Sherlo]

I would not trust the accuracy of any documents supplied by Tesla (or any other entity) years after the first sale unless those documents included my signature or initials on each and every sheet provided to me.

As an attorney, I routinely sign or initial plus date and indicate the time of said signing on all legal papers.

Understand, but better than nothing since I wasn’t given papers at delivery (wasn’t years, months). Just sharing as a point of reference.