Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

[MS-Alec]

I really overwhelmed with this community support! It shows me, that I am not crazy feeling being ripped off.

For everyone's clarity let me reiterate the timeline and recap my points:

1. 11/15/19 Tesla sold a car to 3rd party dealer via the auction (The auction house almost never takes ownership)

2. Mid-December I purchased the car from 3rd party dealership
The dealer stated the FSDC (@Battpower, Full Self Driving Capabilities) disappeared once he executed the software update jus a day before I took delivery (As he said -he did that as a good gesture (we wanted the best, you know the rest, right?) AND he cited the Tesla system glitch for this disappearance.

3. In January when I transfer the car's ownership to my account, I schedule a service appointment, where I was told that Tesla conducted an audit on 11/18/19 (TREE days later after the legal ownership has been transferred and removed this FSDC opt as result)

4. I called Tesla and requested the Monroney sticker for already MY car.

5. Tesla emailed me the sticker which indicates the purchase of EAP and FSDC at $4K and $3K respectively.

6. I was as many of us under impression that any features/options will be attached to the VIN, therefore I have tried to resolve this matter with Tesla without any success. Another service tech told me, that I would be losing FSDC anyway after the ownership transfer.

7. If I did not pay for this FSDC option and Tesla has rights remove it, what would prevent them to remove any "not-paid" options what I currently have but did not pay separately - High Fidelity Sound, Homelink, Premium Lights, Subzero package, adjustable air suspension, even folding mirror, etc. since almost everything controlled via software???

 

[MP3Mike]

1. 11/15/19 Tesla sold a car to 3rd party dealer via the auction (The auction house almost never takes ownership)

2. Mid-December I purchased the car from 3rd party dealership
The dealer stated the FSDC (@Battpower, Full Self Driving Capabilities) disappeared once he executed the software update jus a day before I took delivery (As he said -he did that as a good gesture (we wanted the best, you know the rest, right?) AND he cited the Tesla system glitch for this disappearance.

3. In January when I transfer the car's ownership to my account, I schedule a service appointment, where I was told that Tesla conducted an audit on 11/18/19 (TREE days later after the legal ownership has been transferred and removed this FSDC opt as result)

So you confirm that it did not have FSD when you took ownership of it. That pretty much means your only recourse is through the dealer you bought it from.
​

4. I called Tesla and requested the Monroney sticker for already MY car.

5. Tesla emailed me the sticker which indicates the purchase of EAP and FSDC at $4K and $3K respectively.

6. I was as many of us under impression that any features/options will be attached to the VIN, therefore I have tried to resolve this matter with Tesla without any success. Another service tech told me, that I would be losing FSDC anyway after the ownership transfer.

That would be like saying that someone can't remove the fancy optional wheels on a car and install cheap ones and then sell it that way if the Monroney sticker listed it originally came with the fancy wheels.

You can liken it to a bank depositing someone else's money into your account. You get a statement showing the deposit, but the bank can just reach in and take it back once they are made aware of the mistake, months later, even after you have spent it.

 

[Vm.one]

Buy a used iPhone...the previous owner put inferior glass before selling it. You can't sue Apple.

That's why they have certified pre-owned.

Auction cars are as is basis.

 

[MS-Alec]

That would be like saying that someone can't remove the fancy optional wheels on a car and install cheap ones and then sell it that way if the Monroney sticker listed it originally came with the fancy wheels. ​

I would have no issues it fancy wheels were replaced BEFORE the auction, but not after. I did not see them and would not take them into consideration to buy this car or not.
This is like you bought a house and 3 days later after you moved-in the previous owner shows up to take off a really pretty and fancy chandelier in your foyer. Maybe it was a key point why you purchased this particular house, ah?

 

[swegman]

I really overwhelmed with this community support! It shows me, that I am not crazy feeling being ripped off.

For everyone's clarity let me reiterate the timeline and recap my points:

1. 11/15/19 Tesla sold a car to 3rd party dealer via the auction (The auction house almost never takes ownership)

2. Mid-December I purchased the car from 3rd party dealership
The dealer stated the FSDC (@Battpower, Full Self Driving Capabilities) disappeared once he executed the software update jus a day before I took delivery (As he said -he did that as a good gesture (we wanted the best, you know the rest, right?) AND he cited the Tesla system glitch for this disappearance.

3. In January when I transfer the car's ownership to my account, I schedule a service appointment, where I was told that Tesla conducted an audit on 11/18/19 (TREE days later after the legal ownership has been transferred and removed this FSDC opt as result)

4. I called Tesla and requested the Monroney sticker for already MY car.

5. Tesla emailed me the sticker which indicates the purchase of EAP and FSDC at $4K and $3K respectively.

6. I was as many of us under impression that any features/options will be attached to the VIN, therefore I have tried to resolve this matter with Tesla without any success. Another service tech told me, that I would be losing FSDC anyway after the ownership transfer.

7. If I did not pay for this FSDC option and Tesla has rights remove it, what would prevent them to remove any "not-paid" options what I currently have but did not pay separately - High Fidelity Sound, Homelink, Premium Lights, Subzero package, adjustable air suspension, even folding mirror, etc. since almost everything controlled via software???

There may be some confusion over the terminology being used. What exactly does the Monroney sheet state? Please clarify whether it states FSDC, which is Full Self Driving Computer or whether it states FSD, which is Full Self Driving, ir both FSDC and FSD. FSDC and FSD are not the same, although they are interrelated.

FSDC is a hardware computer and can not be removed by a firmware update. I believe every car manufactured by Tesla since some time in 2017 or 2018 includes the all the hardware (eg, the computer, cameras and sensors) required for full self driving.

FSD is the software utilized by the FSDC to enable self driving by the car. FSD has not yet been released by Tesla. Tesla has the ability to remove FSD from cars that purchased this feature via an OTA update, as FSD is software.

Tesla removes FSD (software) from used cars that are auctioned and sold by non-Tesla dealers. They do not remove the computer (hardware).

Please carefully review the Monroney sheet and let us know which it is.

 

[Chaserr]

They transferred the car with FSD included. You purchased the car with FSD included. They decided to remove it AFTER it was your car. That makes it simple theft.

If someone believes otherwise, I recommend removing the wheels from a car you've already sold to someone else and tell them you've "Audited the wheels" so they know who removed the property and can address that removal the same way as Tesla. Let the police sort out the matter for you first hand, if it's not theft there is nothing to worry about.

@MS-Alec if you haven't already involved the police, file a report. The dates and chain of custody of everything you have are solid evidence to make this theft and you'll want an official investigation to help you retrieve your stolen property. It will help you in court if Tesla insists on making it civil, and probably stop them from forcing that route as they can't try to out-money law enforcement as easily as you.

 

[MS-Alec]

As of today, I do not have even Enhanced AP -no Summon and NoA.

 

[MS-Alec]

 

[ucmndd]

I will try to reach out the Electric, as well as Inside EV

Those two outlets are basically State Media for Tesla. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds.

You need to take this somewhere that's already on Tesla's bad side, like Jalopnik. They'd be much more likely to write a snarky article exposing your situation than someone like Fred Lambert at Electrek, who isn't going to lift a finger to poke the bear holding his two Roadster 2.0s hostage.

 

[thedm96]

It should be simple like a computer purchase- You buy a Microsoft Surface laptop (let's stick to MS brand for now to avoid others brands speculation ) AND the operation system/software with it, plus any add-ons, such as Internet Explorer, MS Paint, MS Defender, etc.
If you choose to sell it to somebody else Microsoft WILL NOT try to extort more money from next owner, AND will provide improvement and security updates till the EOSL.

FSD is basically a kickstarter campaign for something not being delivered yet. If I have to trade in my car because a "baby happens", for example, why should I have to flush my 7k down the drain while the next guy gets to benefit?

The fact is most people will never see FSD during much of the life of their purchase.

 

[MS-Alec]

Those two outlets are basically State Media for Tesla. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds.

You need to take this somewhere that's already on Tesla's bad side, like Jalopnik. They'd be much more likely to write a snarky article exposing your situation than someone like Fred Lambert at Electrek, who isn't going to lift a finger to poke the bear holding his two Roadster 2.0s hostage.

Thanks totally forgot about Jalopnik!

 

[MS-Alec]

FSD is basically a kickstarter campaign for something not being delivered yet. If I have to trade in my car because a "baby happens", for example, why should I have to flush my 7k down the drain while the next guy gets to benefit?

Apparently, it is even worse- the next guy (me) was asked to pay $7k again!

 

[MP3Mike]

Apparently, it is even worse- the next guy (me) was asked to pay $7k again!

Wouldn't you have to pay $10k? ($3k for AP and then $7k for FSD.)

Or did they downgrade it to the new standard AP, from the EAP+FSD listed on the Monroney?

 

[MS-Alec]

Wouldn't you have to pay $10k? ($3k for AP and then $7k for FSD.)

No, Basic AP is a default option now, and to enable FSD they want $7K plus tax (why they tax the service, if it is ??? Or they consider this as a tangible? )

 

[MP3Mike]

How about this for a comparison: A dealer buys on old PC at auction that has Adobe products installed with a license. You purchase it from the dealer and 3 days later Adobe stops working because the original owner requested that Adobe cancel, or transfer, the license but it took Adobe a few days to do it.

 

[MP3Mike]

No, Basic AP is a default option now, and to enable FSD they want $7K plus tax (why they tax the service, if it is ??? Or they consider this as a tangible? )

It is electronically delivered software. Tax rules vary by local. (I think in CA electronically delivered software isn't taxed, but people have had to fight Tesla on it.)

 

[swegman]

View attachment 506934
As of today, I do not have even Enhanced self driving AP -no Summon and NoA.

Thank you for posting the Monroney sheet. This clarifies things a bit.

The car was built in 2017 and included the computer and other hardware (at a $3,000 cost) to enable full self driving (eg, this is FSDC). The Monroney sheet does NOT show that the FSD software was part of the car when it was built. So one of 2 possibilities exist: (1) FSD software was incorrectly added to the car when built and then removed once Tesla discovered the error (via the audit, hence the reason FSD is not listed in the Monroney sheet), or (2) the original owner added FSD after having purchased the car, which Tesla then removed in accordance with their stated policy when getting back possession of a car, which would most likely be via a trade-in.

Why do you say you do not have EAP? Because you do not have Summon and NoA? As previously noted, at some point Tesla moved these two features from EAP to the FSD software, which it looks like was not supposed to be included on the car when originally built according to the Monroney sheet you attached. I’m not certain what was a part of EAP when your car was built, but I’m certain there are members here that can answer that question.

Can someone tell the OP what features of EAP should be on his car, based upon his car’s month and year of manufacture, so he can determine whether or not he still has EAP.

BTW, you are not missing much not having Summons. Search this forum and you will find tons of posts where the cars crashed into objects using Summons.

 

[MP3Mike]

Can someone tell the OP what features of EAP should be on his car, based upon his car’s month and year of manufacture, so he can determine whether or not he still has EAP.

Any car passing through Tesla's hands gets EAP replaced with basic AP now.

 

[drtimhill]

Pardon? With over the air updates, that's precisely the issue here.

(also by refusing to franchise sales or service, refusing to sell parts to 1st or 3rd parties, and by refusing to service vehicles that are modified, but that's not on topic)

I think you missed the point. OTA updates, while novel in delivery form, are no different from physical updates from an ownership/transfer standpoint. Let's say you bought a used car and found, after purchase, the owner had accidentally left some personal items in the trunk. Do you own those also? If they are not part of the bill of sale, then you almost certainly dont (this varies across jurisdictions, but you get my point). If the dealer did not specify that the car came with FSD then this is pretty much the same situation.

Where it gets dubious is that "if", since the OP only referenced the monroney, which only covers the car when it was sold new. We dont know how Tesla represented the car when sold to the dealer, nor how the dealer represented the car to the OP. If Tesla sold the car specified as being with FSD and later revoked it, they are clearly in the wrong and everyone should get mad at them (including me). If the dealer explicitly sold the car with FSD when it didn't have it (regardless of if it was working or not), then he is responsible (even if it was just an honest mistake). If neither Tesla nor the dealer represented the car as having FSD, then its down to the OP for erroneously assuming the car had FSD (presumably based on the monroney).

However, if Tesla were late in revoking the feature, and thus created an expectation from the OP (just by playing with the car, as we all would), then regardless of how "right" they were legally, they certainly were downright stupid from a customer relations standpoint.

 

[drtimhill]

Kind of agree with your approach, but here there is something different going on in so much as Tesla are - to continue your analogy - habitually rebuilding cars so that the spec of a particulate VIN is changing. What started out as a 2.8litre really is changing into a different spec of car at the hands of the original manufacturer. I don't believe there is a parallel in the ICE world, where cars were bought back by the original manufacturer and re spec'd to be sold on. And even less so if, say, a model turned out to have a problematic engine so the manufacturer bought those cars back to mitigate their liability, fitted a different engine spec and then resold the cars with their revised spec.

I agree its complex, and any analogy breaks down at some point. But just looking at the monroney for any ICE car is no guarantee about the actual state of the car for some future resale (after all, as I noted, the engine could have been swapped out). What I dont know is if that monroney was quoted as part of the contract by the dealer, or if the OP just assumed the monroney was a legal description of what he was buying.

The nasty bit in all this is that it appears the car did have FSD at the time the OP looked at it, and it was only later revoked. This is pretty bad (well, awful really) on Tesla's part; if they are going to de-content a car for resale, they should do it before they part with it (and make that clear in any associated documentation). By my analogy, this would be like Ford deciding to swap out the engine but not doing it until after the car had been sold on, which is of course absurd.