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Tesla's Autopilot needs to be shut down and NHTSA needs to do their due diligence

Discussion in 'Model S' started by imispgh, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    @imisphgh , according to Elon, Tesla's data -- which was provided to the NHTSA -- shows that AP equipped cars are significantly safer than non-AP cars. You are welcome to question his statement. No one is claiming that AP or EAP is perfect. It will improve over time (as is obvious by what has happened over the past year). AP does appear to add safety to the vehicle.
     
    • Like x 7
  2. gabeincal

    gabeincal HODLer / Theta seller

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    I don't need a drunk tesla video. I had my drunk AP1 for almost a year now :)

    I see your point, but if the first step in curing cancer is getting you a cold that you can prevent by taking precautions (which is equal to holding the steering wheel and making sure the car doesn't do something stupid), then I'm all for it. But the key here is I am all for it. But somebody might jump in a Tesla where somebody else agreed to the same T&C's and unknowingly cause an accident (though message on dash reminds you)...
     
  3. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    You actually don't have to read the entire manual. There is a warning message you have to click through before it allows autosteer usage. And as long as you heed to that message and use it as the assistive feature that it is, then there really isn't a safety issue.
     
    • Like x 12
  4. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    A deliberately abrasive first post is not you "trying to be helpful". You came here with one intent: to spread FUD.
     
    • Like x 16
  5. Sir Guacamolaf

    Sir Guacamolaf The good kind of fat

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    "Tesla's Autopilot needs to be shut down and NHTSA needs to do their due diligence"

    What makes you think Tesla is not doing their due diligence? Lets see,
    1. They make it quite clear that the onus is you, the driver
    2. They require you to have hands on the wheel, all the time
    3. They are late, to the much invited irk of AP2 owners, and yet they are rolling it out as a delicate balance between safety and reliability.
    4. And how the hell do you propose we get 6bn miles of road experience, without rolling it out?
    The safest place for a bird is in a nest. But that is not what birds are designed to do. IMO, let her fly! Educate the owners. If the owner does not read the manual (which is not like a 6pt light gray credit card agreement), or ignores the "one liner" OK button you have to hit to enable AP, it's the owner's fault.

    Question for OP - do you own an AP2 car? What prompted you to post this incendiary headline as literally your first post?
     
    • Like x 7
  6. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    I know FUD when I see it.
     
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  7. imispgh

    imispgh Member

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    I didn't justify any points using the McCarthy/Speckman tragedy. I asked for there to be an investigation. And if you check my LinkedIn article on that I listed questions to ask. (I do however find the no data thing troubling). It is very possible there is no there - there. I am asking for due diligence to be done through a proper investigation.

    Yes the fire is separate from autopilot issues.
     
    • Disagree x 3
  8. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    the problem is your initial post used only conjecture to make claims without basis.
    There is no evidence to prove anything you make sensational accusations for.
    Where is the evidence that shows NHTSA have not done due diligence?
    Where is the evidence that Tesla are not handing over telemetry data?
    Without evidence all of this is wild conjecture with no basis in fact.
     
    • Like x 6
  9. gabeincal

    gabeincal HODLer / Theta seller

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    And you might be completely right :)
     
    • Informative x 1
  10. gabeincal

    gabeincal HODLer / Theta seller

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    There is a warning message that you click through as an owner (or anyone else who enables the technology in the first place). The next driver doesn't..
     
  11. Sir Guacamolaf

    Sir Guacamolaf The good kind of fat

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    BTW to clarify my stance, when a rocket takes off in Florida, it potentially could explode and take out a chunk of Florida with it. There is a reason why those launchpads are built where they are. They may be safe today, but when the first rocket went to the moon, it packed the punch of a hydrogen bomb in a machine built by the lowest bidder, with really no way to test it.

    If we never took risks, we would never be on the moon.

    Seriously, I am willing and more than happy to take these risks, if it means
    • when I am old, and have poor eyesight, that I don't loose my freedom.
    • that we can have a car sharing economy
    • that we don't trust our lives on on texting and driving idiot's judgement
    • that we gain 2 extra hours a day in our lives
    • that we don't have to dedicate large swaths of prime real estate to parking
    • or spend time finding parking, or fighting the parking attendant who wants your keys
    • that we have immense defense implications that keep your boys and girls safe
    • and I don't have to spend teaching my 16 year old how to drive.
    • and I can say, "Go home car, I'm drunk".
    And AP2 is growing up, but it ain't that bad. Seriously get over it.

    PS: Robot overlords, if ur reading this, please kill me last. TIA.
     
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  12. mdevp

    mdevp Member

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    You are being quite hypocritical because there are more driver assist Mercedes than AP Tesla's just based on sheer worldwide sales of S and E class, and yet you admit most of your articles target Tesla because of the "media coverage". Why should you care about media coverage? If you actually cared, shouldn't the actual number of people using this tech be your real concern? Then most of your articles should be targeting Mercedes not Tesla. Very hypocritical.
     
    • Like x 10
  13. disagree

    disagree hos epi to polu

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    Is anyone going to point out to the thread-starter that AP on HW1 and EAP on HW2 are not identical? Should I?
     
    • Like x 7
  14. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    Then I'm confused, you call for autopilot to be withdrawn and an investigation into accidents where autopilot was in use - then call for an investigation into an accident just in case autopilot was in use.
    Which is it?
    The first one happens now - so no need to call for something that already happens
    or
    We need to investigate every accident of a car that has autopilot fitted just in case there might be an issue.

    The first one is reasonable - which is why it's already happening
    The second is not reasonable
     
  15. Khanhvngo

    Khanhvngo Member

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    Hi everyone, did anyone notices that there wasn't two line in this video? I want to point out two things!

    1. AP used two line to navigate!!!
    2. Where the OP driving didn't have two line!

    Trying to use AP where there isn't to line, is crazy: you should expect the car to try and fine the lines!!!
     
  16. gabeincal

    gabeincal HODLer / Theta seller

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    Turn that around. If there isn't 2 lines and AP NEEDS 2 lines, why does it let you activate it?
     
  17. gregincal

    gregincal Active Member

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    I don't think the auto-steer in my wife's Honda would do any better than that video. Should it be disabled and investigated as well?
     
    • Like x 2
  18. Pezpunk

    Pezpunk Active Member

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    not the whole thing - i'm sure everyone understands how windshield wipers work and so on, but i certainly expect anyone to read the manual on a piece of technology they've never used before, particularly if it's something as inherently dangerous as driving an automobile. if then if they can't be bothered they don't deserve to have a driver's license.

    i'm not shooting the messenger, i'm shooting down your premise.

    if the car begins to do something anomalous, the driver who is paying attention and has a hand on the wheel has zero difficulty taking over. engaging autopilot does NOT disavow the driver of responsibility for operating the vehicle.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #39 stopcrazypp, Mar 1, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    A couple things.

    1) I'm not sure if you are aware, but AP2 uses different hardware and software than AP1 (other than perhaps some shared libraries). Specifically, the Mobileye hardware/software used in AP1 was dropped after a public break between Tesla and Mobileye. Now Tesla is using Nvidia's PX2 and their own custom software. Thus there is no "regression" to speak of given it's using new software.

    2) Although Tesla's goal is to eventually reach full self driving, AP2 currently remains a purely level 2 assistive feature. They reinforce this in the manual, a warning message to activate the features, and nags for the driver to keep their hands on the steering wheel. These measures were deemed sufficient by the NHTSA (see next point).

    3) I encourage you to read NHTSA's full report on the Florida accident before making claims that they and Tesla did not do their due diligence. It's not too long a read and it deals with AP1, but a lot of the same principles apply to AP2. The main concern NHTSA had is if Tesla did enough to address driver attention and driver misuse when using the system. They found that Tesla had taken that into consideration and the mitigating strategies was to NHTSA satisfaction (including the increased hands-on-steering-wheel nagging, which transfers over to AP2). Tesla even went beyond and implemented a strike-out system for drivers who continually ignore nags.
    https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2016/INCLA-PE16007-7876.PDF

    4) This was already pointed out by others, but other similar systems (even the latest state-of-the-art Mercedes one) will also veer into oncoming lanes when left to its own devices (see quote below and linked article for details). This is not considered a safety issue by the NHTSA because as an assistive feature, it is expected for the driver to intervene in such situations.
    Hands off
     
    • Informative x 4
    • Like x 3
  20. FlyingCookie

    FlyingCookie Member

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