The DOJ Tesla probe has expanded to include EV driving ranges

[ChooseFreedom]

When the world pays my bills I'll care. I just want accurately represented products. Tesla needs to do that for me to consider them when I replace my Kia. If not, Ill buy another HMG product.

Tesla has the best charging network, and it's not even close.
They have the best software.
They have the best drivetrain to date.

If you don't buy a Tesla solely because they market their cars as having more range than what it gets in the "real world", that's on you.
It's not like they're far inferior to the competition. Quite the opposite.
Many of the new EV options out there are still behind the original MS in many ways.

The competition is only going to push all of them to get better, including Tesla.
The new "Highland" M3 has like 50% all new parts, improvements at nearly every level, and yet Tesla didn't raise the price!
Name any other car manufacturer that has done that. You can't, because none have.

Tesla is a market disruptor. Elon, like him or not, has a vision to change the world. And Tesla is doing that.
Wait until the Model 2/Mini Y comes out. A brand new EV for $25k. It's going to accelerate the ICE demise even faster.

"When the world pays my bills...". Really? Get off your high horse.
Marketing/Sales firms worldwide are not paid to "accurately represent products". They're paid to sell them.
So if Tesla's use of the EPA's figures has negatively affected them, it sure doesn't show.

I couldn't care less what they market as their ideal range. If anyone at this point is expecting that figure, they're just delusional.
If anyone is expecting ranges similar to ICE, also not in touch with the current tech levels.
But it's getting better with every new innovation, which seems to be happening faster and faster.
Either you're ready or you're not. Hop on, hang on, or get out of the way!

 

[MP3Mike]

The new "Highland" M3 has like 50% all new parts, improvements at nearly every level, and yet Tesla didn't raise the price!
Name any other car manufacturer that has done that. You can't, because none have.

Yep, not even Tesla did that. (They did raise the price of the "Highland" Model 3 slightly. At least that is what I read.)

 

[Unobtanium]

Tesla has the best charging network, and it's not even close.
They have the best software.
They have the best drivetrain to date.

If you don't buy a Tesla solely because they

Tesla has the best charging network, and it's not even close.
They have the best software.
They have the best drivetrain to date.

If you don't buy a Tesla solely because they market their cars as having more range than what it gets in the "real world", that's on you.
It's not like they're far inferior to the competition. Quite the opposite.
Many of the new EV options out there are still behind the original MS in many ways.

The competition is only going to push all of them to get better, including Tesla.
The new "Highland" M3 has like 50% all new parts, improvements at nearly every level, and yet Tesla didn't raise the price!
Name any other car manufacturer that has done that. You can't, because none have.

Tesla is a market disruptor. Elon, like him or not, has a vision to change the world. And Tesla is doing that.
Wait until the Model 2/Mini Y comes out. A brand new EV for $25k. It's going to accelerate the ICE demise even faster.

"When the world pays my bills...". Really? Get off your high horse.
Marketing/Sales firms worldwide are not paid to "accurately represent products". They're paid to sell them.
So if Tesla's use of the EPA's figures has negatively affected them, it sure doesn't show.

I couldn't care less what they market as their ideal range. If anyone at this point is expecting that figure, they're just delusional.
If anyone is expecting ranges similar to ICE, also not in touch with the current tech levels.
But it's getting better with every new innovation, which seems to be happening faster and faster.
Either you're ready or you're not. Hop on, hang on, or get out of the way!

Tesla does have the best charging network. It will be opened up to me next year. That said, I charge at home 99% of the time.

I much prefer the drivetrain in my Kia to anything Tesla has until we get into the S and X. But that's another price tier up.

Software...in what way is Tesla better? The only way I care about is the nav in kia is total dog water. I have hopes and ota fixes it.

I passed over Tesla due to build quality and performance. The model S and X were more than I wanted to spend, so MYP and M3P were what I looked at.

Im really curious about the M3Ludacrus/Plaid! Keeping my eyes out for that. Also hoping build quality is good.

I dont care that Tesla hasn't raised price. Tbey haven't because they have huge profit margins. That would be like bragging that many Kia dealers were able to charge 10k market adjustments on my car. Since I am not friends with Elon, I want him to make as little off me as reasonable if I buy his product. Being overcharged is not an honor.

 

[gtae07]

A lot of people out there seem to believe that EPA rated range should reflect whatever their personal driving situation is. The car magazines and others seem to think it should mean steady state driving at 70 MPH on the highway,

I'd bet that 95% of the public thinks that's what a highway efficiency/rated range should be, regardless of drivetrain.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Tesla does have the best charging network. It will be opened up to me next year. That said, I charge at home 99% of the time.

I much prefer the drivetrain in my Kia to anything Tesla has until we get into the S and X. But that's another price tier up.

Software...in what way is Tesla better? The only way I care about is the nav in kia is total dog water. I have hopes and ota fixes it.

I passed over Tesla due to build quality and performance. The model S and X were more than I wanted to spend, so MYP and M3P were what I looked at.

Im really curious about the M3Ludacrus/Plaid! Keeping my eyes out for that. Also hoping build quality is good.

I dont care that Tesla hasn't raised price. Tbey haven't because they have huge profit margins. That would be like bragging that many Kia dealers were able to charge 10k market adjustments on my car. Since I am not friends with Elon, I want him to make as little off me as reasonable if I buy his product. Being overcharged is not an honor.

How long has the Kia EV drivetrain been out? Hard to compare it to a time-tested one like Tesla. Get back to me in 8-10 yrs.

I don't have a Kia, so I haven't compared the softwares directly. Maybe someone has, maybe there's a YT video, I haven't looked.
I'm basing that statement on all the posts I've read about many other manufacturers who seem to always be behind Tesla in that category.
You mention the nav in Kia being shite, That's a pretty big piece of it. Tesla can get you to any level charger you want, and show you how much charge you'll have when you get there. My opinion, that should be the minimum any EV software should be able to do.
"Hopes and OTA fixes" - How long are you willing to wait? Because you can have it right now with a Tesla.

Build quality is always the low-hanging fruit when it comes to Tesla critics. Every new car company has those growing pains.
And from what I can see, every iteration of a Tesla model gets better. So Are expecting perfection? That's not realistic.
Kia has existing infrastructure to fall back on when it comes to build quality. They're not starting at zero with their EV's.
And yet they're still playing catchup in many other categories.
So I'll take the better in most categories over the slightly better (for now) in that one.

Demand is what sets the price. As long there are people who will pay Tesla's price, that's where it will be. That's basic capitalism.
If you choose not to buy, that's your personal choice.

Don't blame Elon for running a for profit business. Actually, credit is deserved for finding more efficient, cost-effective ways to run that business that allows for those higher profit margins.
Instead of being mad at Elon, why not ask yourself, why can't Kia lower their prices?

 

[DrChaos]

Tesla does have the best charging network. It will be opened up to me next year. That said, I charge at home 99% of the time.

I much prefer the drivetrain in my Kia to anything Tesla has until we get into the S and X. But that's another price tier up.

In what way do you prefer the drivetrain? To me that's a strength of Telsas.

 

[sleepydoc]

I'd bet that 95% of the public thinks that's what a highway efficiency/rated range should be, regardless of drivetrain.

Then 95% of the public needs to take the time to read the EPA guidelines.

 

[gtae07]

Then 95% of the public needs to take the time to read the EPA guidelines.

No, the government needs to fix the danged tests so they represent what they say they represent. Or generate better numbers that actually represent what people want and need to know, not what some desk driver in DC thinks is best for them. Only in government-land does it make sense that "highway" range means "mostly not on the highway" range.

If what the test is representing is misunderstood by the vast majority of its target audience, telling everyone "but you just don't understand" is missing the point. These numbers are generated so people can understand what they're buying. Obviously if there's a problem with it being widely misunderstood and it's causing problems, it needs to be fixed.

 

[MP3Mike]

No, the government needs to fix the danged tests so they represent what they say they represent. Or generate better numbers that actually represent what people want and need to know, not what some desk driver in DC thinks is best for them. Only in government-land does it make sense that "highway" range means "mostly not on the highway" range.

But they don't even actively publish the highway range numbers.

The EPA range number has always been a combination of city and highway driving, which is what they say and that is exactly what they represent.

 

[flixden]

Then 95% of the public needs to take the time to read the EPA guidelines.

I don't quite follow, sorry. I know the EPA guidelines, but I also think that the highway range should be at something like 65mph or so. Because that seems more realistic.
The test should be fixed, instead of consumers understanding why the numbers make no sense. Just adjust it, such that the numbers do make sense.

 

[Brovane]

As a Nissan Leaf owner I can tell you the Tesla Range meter is more accurate than the Range meter in my Leaf. I recently rented a Model Y and drove it 800+ miles in a week. I just used the battery percentage instead of miles of range and I found the battery percentage to be really accurate. If the navigation told me that I would arrive at a supercharger with 20% left on the battery I would be within a couple of percentage points of that when I arrived.

 

[advocate8]

As a Nissan Leaf owner I can tell you the Tesla Range meter is more accurate than the Range meter in my Leaf. I recently rented a Model Y and drove it 800+ miles in a week. I just used the battery percentage instead of miles of range and I found the battery percentage to be really accurate. If the navigation told me that I would arrive at a supercharger with 20% left on the battery I would be within a couple of percentage points of that when I arrived.

Yes, but that’s not really relevant. The subject here is the accuracy of the EPA figures for range in miles vs IRL...
And we have a general idea of the accuracy or lack thereof of the Model Y’s.
What would be relevant is the Leaf’s IRL vs EPA estimates in miles. What has been your experience?

 

[Brovane]

Yes, but that’s not really relevant. The subject here is the accuracy of the EPA figures for range in miles vs IRL...
And we have a general idea of the accuracy or lack thereof of the Model Y’s.
What would be relevant is the Leaf’s IRL vs EPA estimates in miles. What has been your experience?

Not even close because I don't drive like they do for the EPA range test in my Leaf. Just like I have never owned a ICE car that got the actual MPG on the Monroney sticker. All it does is tell me the expected MPG using the EPA method so it gives me the same baseline to compare different vehicles. Instead of going after Tesla, we should be pushing the EPA to update how they do range testing for EV's so it is overall more accurate to IRL.

 

[Rebar2043]

It's never been a secret that Tesla doesn't try to be accurate.

Then Govt should enforce correct range reporting.

 

[zoomer0056]

Then Govt should enforce correct range reporting.

I trust that the gov't is covering all bases.

 

[Gloff]

Not even close because I don't drive like they do for the EPA range test in my Leaf. Just like I have never owned a ICE car that got the actual MPG on the Monroney sticker. All it does is tell me the expected MPG using the EPA method so it gives me the same baseline to compare different vehicles. Instead of going after Tesla, we should be pushing the EPA to update how they do range testing for EV's so it is overall more accurate to IRL.

I think a large part of the issue is that the point of the EPA estimates, as you said, is so consumers can compare apples to apples.

I.E. This is how this vehicle performs using our standard testing. If you compare a Chevy Silverado to a Ford F-150, they're tested using the same cycle, so the numbers can be directly compared. Your results will always vary, but the variance (in theory) should be the same for both vehicles.

The problem is that there are two different EPA cycles for the same product (5 cycle and 1 cycle). This can and does yield different results for the same product. As a result the EPA range estimates are not apples to apples for different brands.

That said, Tesla knows the rules, and is playing by them, the other automakers choose to use the "single cycle".

The EPA should have just 1 test for EVs, so that the playing field is even, until that changes, Tesla will use the cycle they're entitled to use, and take advantage of that ability. The pedantic in me would do the same thing.

 

[mongo]

I.E. This is how this vehicle performs using our standard testing. If you compare a Chevy Silverado to a Ford F-150, they're tested using the same cycle, so the numbers can be directly compared. Your results will always vary, but the variance (in theory) should be the same for both vehicles.

Variance compatibility was more true for similar designed inefficient ICE vehicles where a few extra Wh/ mile of energy didn't impact results much. With high efficiency EVs, 25 Wh/mile can mean 10% loss of range. Also, ICE range is tank volume*MPG, EVs use different tests for range and MPGe.

The problem is that there are two different EPA cycles for the same product (5 cycle and 1 cycle). This can and does yield different results for the same product. As a result the EPA range estimates are not apples to apples for different brands.

With the note that the single cycke test is actually two tests, city until battery is dead and highway until battery is dead.
Also, the 5 cycle tests are used for MPGe, not range. The alternate range test is made up of city, highway, and constant speed segments which are combined into one test run.

The EPA should have just 1 test for EVs, so that the playing field is even, until that changes, Tesla will use the cycle they're entitled to use, and take advantage of that ability. The pedantic in me would do the same thing.

EPA could also publish the 5 cycle test results (available from EPA web site for manufacturers that used them) so buyers can estimate what their commute would get them.
Tesla does use the 'single cycle' highway and city tests for range. They also run the cold cycle in range depletion (stop at dead battery) mode.

 

[eleven24]

If you check the nominal efficiency, say 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi, and take the EPA range of 330 miles, then 0.25 kWh/mi * 330 mi = 82.5 kWh battery size. See, it's not hard to find out the nominal usable battery size in Tesla.

I get that completely, but you're calculating it yourself. How many people do that, or even know how to do that, when comparing EV's?

 

[flixden]

If you check the nominal efficiency, say 4 mi/kWh or 250 Wh/mi, and take the EPA range of 330 miles, then 0.25 kWh/mi * 330 mi = 82.5 kWh battery size. See, it's not hard to find out the nominal usable battery size in Tesla.

Where does the 250 Wh/mi come from?
My window sticker (MY) says 28kWh/100mi = 280Wh/mi, with an EPA range of still 330 miles. That would translate to a 92.4kWh battery.
Something doesn't add up here, or at least it doesn't in my head.

 

[mongo]

Where does the 250 Wh/mi come from?
My window sticker (MY) says 28kWh/100mi = 280Wh/mi, with an EPA range of still 330 miles. That would translate to a 92.4kWh battery.
Something doesn't add up here, or at least it doesn't in my head.


View attachment 990374

On an EV, the MPGe (kWh/100 miles) and range values come from two different tests.
On an ICE, range = reported tank size * MPG.