Tidal and in car audio with 2021.40.x

[bo3bdar]

Does anybody have any sense of how much can be downloaded in terms of music hours? Are we talking 2-3 hours or 20 hours? I just want a sense of how much you can do before you need to start deleting. I've got the top 1043 rock songs of all time in a set of playlists but I doubt it would all fit. The list is based on NYC's Q104.3 station list from 2019, broken into 50 song batches. My wife and I always joked that the station played the same 20 songs over and over, but maybe it was a few more than that. The top 100 were certainly played a lot though.

I thought I read somewhere that it was on the order of 60G of space, but I can't find that link. As another possible datapoint, I set it up to download something like 15 albums off WiFi to get them HiFi. Today when I went to drive, Tidal is completely broken and won't play anything at all. Everything just gives me a loading error. Same loading error if it tries over LTE. Then it also somehow contaminated my USB drive which has been working without errors for a year, and started showing loading errors. Two wheel reboot fixed USB, but Tidal is still dead. Out of space? Who knows.

Thanks for reporting on this! Would you mind giving an example or two of songs/tracks that sounds different between Spotify and Tidal? I have Spotify and am thinking of a trial subscription to Tidal and I'd like to compare them.

One song I've been profiling is Green Peppers from Herb Alpert. It's a good test case for being too shrill, because a blasting trumpet can have a hard edge The maracas also have a muted sound on Spotify, but sound like maracas on Tidal. It's subtle, but it's not quite as crisp on Spotify. I also have been using D.O.A. by BloodRock, because on Tidal you can hear the singer breathing in to sing, and on Spotify I can't hear that level of detail. For listening tests I think you want stuff that is based off real instruments, because you'll have a good memory for what it should sound like. Stuff that is heavily electronic like EDM, dubstep, or even heavy guitar effects can be hard to tell any difference.

You guys with the premium LR stereo might be able to hear differences better, because the premium stereo has much better high end, and I think the subwoofer fills in a dead spot around 175Hz. I haven't yet been able to profile my buddies LR to see, but if Tesla put this much effort into the SR sound, I'm sure they put in the effort for the LR too.

BTW, I test without Immersive because I don't have any. I'm not sure what that will do to testing.


Has anyone seen a difference between your free Spotify and paying for premium? Since they use Spotify in the U.K. and Europe, I was speculating that they might crush the bitrate on the free version like they do for Slacker in the US. Spotify has a lowest tier of 24kbps Ogg, and I'm sure you'd be able to hear the difference for something that low. If that's true, that could also help explain why some people have considered the SR stereo to be terrible, because I originally thought it was terrible after listening to the free Slacker.

 

[Durzel]

I have Premium Connectivity and am using my own Spotify Premium account in the car (a M3P with all the speakers) and I can comfortably say that TIDAL streamed over LTE sounds better to me than Spotify does, and that is magnified further still when the car is either on wireless or tricked into thinking it is (tethered to phone hotspot).

When connected to wireless TIDAL streams in “HiFi” quality (and tells you that it is) and sounds - again to my untrained ears - as good as the FLACs on my USB SSD.

Consequently I’m in the process of trying to effectively migrate to TIDAL….

That’s not much help to you I guess, suffice to say that I don’t think having Premium Connectivity or a Spotify Premium account will make any difference to SQ.

 

[gangzoom]

The SR doesn't have any tweeters, so we are missing anything above about12K.

I didn't realise the SR+ doesn't have tweeters? Every S/X even with base audio had tweeter the only real difference was the additional of a sub in the upgraded audio.

Maybe that's why some people cannot hear a difference between Spotify and Tidal streamed. Its the bottom and top end that sounds better in Tidal. Maybe the SR+ speakers simply don't have the range? But if that's the case HiFi downloads should also sound the same.

The Tidal phone app is much better than the Tesla App. Hopefully 'radio' function will come to the Tesla app. Am loving the track picks on the radio with the phone, its picking songs I like much better than Spotify radio does.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I have Premium Connectivity and am using my own Spotify Premium account in the car (a M3P with all the speakers) and I can comfortably say that TIDAL streamed over LTE sounds better to me than Spotify does, and that is magnified further still when the car is either on wireless or tricked into thinking it is (tethered to phone hotspot).

When connected to wireless TIDAL streams in “HiFi” quality (and tells you that it is) and sounds - again to my untrained ears - as good as the FLACs on my USB SSD.

Consequently I’m in the process of trying to effectively migrate to TIDAL….

That’s not much help to you I guess, suffice to say that I don’t think having Premium Connectivity or a Spotify Premium account will make any difference to SQ.

Interesting it’s better when tethered than using premium connectivity. It sounds like (no pun intended) those who have to pay for premium would be better off saving the money and use it to pay for tidal subscription and tether to their phone.

 

[Tony Hoyle]

I think it's a little muffled sounding, so I bump the far right EQ to +1 to help with clarity. The SR doesn't have any tweeters, so we are missing anything above about12K.

It'd be interesting to see how much the LR changes that..

 

[Bootneckshuffl]

I have Premium Connectivity and am using my own Spotify Premium account in the car (a M3P with all the speakers) and I can comfortably say that TIDAL streamed over LTE sounds better to me than Spotify does, and that is magnified further still when the car is either on wireless or tricked into thinking it is (tethered to phone hotspot).

When connected to wireless TIDAL streams in “HiFi” quality (and tells you that it is) and sounds - again to my untrained ears - as good as the FLACs on my USB SSD.

Consequently I’m in the process of trying to effectively migrate to TIDAL….

That’s not much help to you I guess, suffice to say that I don’t think having Premium Connectivity or a Spotify Premium account will make any difference to SQ.

Totally agree with this. I’ve signed into my premium Spotify account on the Tesla app. Offers absolutely no difference in SQ to standard Tesla Spotify account

 

[Bootneckshuffl]

I thought I read somewhere that it was on the order of 60G of space, but I can't find that link. As another possible datapoint, I set it up to download something like 15 albums off WiFi to get them HiFi. Today when I went to drive, Tidal is completely broken and won't play anything at all. Everything just gives me a loading error. Same loading error if it tries over LTE. Then it also somehow contaminated my USB drive which has been working without errors for a year, and started showing loading errors. Two wheel reboot fixed USB, but Tidal is still dead. Out of space? Who knows.



One song I've been profiling is Green Peppers from Herb Alpert. It's a good test case for being too shrill, because a blasting trumpet can have a hard edge The maracas also have a muted sound on Spotify, but sound like maracas on Tidal. It's subtle, but it's not quite as crisp on Spotify. I also have been using D.O.A. by BloodRock, because on Tidal you can hear the singer breathing in to sing, and on Spotify I can't hear that level of detail. For listening tests I think you want stuff that is based off real instruments, because you'll have a good memory for what it should sound like. Stuff that is heavily electronic like EDM, dubstep, or even heavy guitar effects can be hard to tell any difference.

You guys with the premium LR stereo might be able to hear differences better, because the premium stereo has much better high end, and I think the subwoofer fills in a dead spot around 175Hz. I haven't yet been able to profile my buddies LR to see, but if Tesla put this much effort into the SR sound, I'm sure they put in the effort for the LR too.

BTW, I test without Immersive because I don't have any. I'm not sure what that will do to testing.


Has anyone seen a difference between your free Spotify and paying for premium? Since they use Spotify in the U.K. and Europe, I was speculating that they might crush the bitrate on the free version like they do for Slacker in the US. Spotify has a lowest tier of 24kbps Ogg, and I'm sure you'd be able to hear the difference for something that low. If that's true, that could also help explain why some people have considered the SR stereo to be terrible, because I originally thought it was terrible after listening to the free Slacker.

Agree with this. Tracks with lots of percussion are notably better in detail to that of Spotify

 

[bo3bdar]

I didn't realise the SR+ doesn't have tweeters? Every S/X even with base audio had tweeter the only real difference was the additional of a sub in the upgraded audio.

Maybe that's why some people cannot hear a difference between Spotify and Tidal streamed. Its the bottom and top end that sounds better in Tidal. Maybe the SR+ speakers simply don't have the range? But if that's the case HiFi downloads should also sound the same.

The Tidal phone app is much better than the Tesla App. Hopefully 'radio' function will come to the Tesla app. Am loving the track picks on the radio with the phone, its picking songs I like much better than Spotify radio does.

It's actually kind of interesting. The SR+ has the tweeters physically installed, including the round imaging tweeters in the headliner and the speakers in the rear parcel shelf. Around March 2020 they stopped including the parcel shelf speakers, but as far as I know all SR+ include tweeters, just disconnected. If you look around you can find the wiring harnesses connect these speakers up to give you 'free' speakers for the price of a cable. They wire the speakers in parallel to the front dash speakers, so the resistance changes from 4 ohms to 2 ohms, but mostly seem to work. Without retuning the stereo, I'm not sure exactly what this will do however.

Just to clarify- the RTA results I posted earlier are for a SR without that cable installed. Stock OEM stereo, so no tweeters.

It'd be interesting to see how much the LR changes that..

Yeah, I need to get ahold of my friend and do a test on his LR stereo using my same test equipment for comparison. As a datapoint, Travis did this profile using different gear. You can see where the tweeters fill in the high end. And also on my SR, I've got no rear dash speakers, so high end on the SR might just be filled by the rear door speakers. I'd like to run a sweep test like this, but it's a ton of work to isolate speakers.

 

[bo3bdar]

Agree with this. Tracks with lots of percussion are notably better in detail to that of Spotify

Definitely a good test for comparisons. Percussion tends to get muted/smudged by the compression. Another track I use for testing is Blue Oyster Cult's I Love the Night. There is a quiet tick, tick, tick percussion that gets smudged out on Spotify. It sounds like the drummer is hitting a closed snare cymbal.


It takes a lot longer, but one of my primary metrics for audio quality is whether I feel any fatigure after an hour of listening. Sound differences can be pretty subtle and hard to pull out during listening tests, and also your ears and brain starts playing tricks on you after even 15 minutes or so. But if it's tuned badly, I can always tell by an hour long listening test and whether I want more, or if I want to turn it off. It's like the effect of listening to AM radio- you had the sound and the music, but it's so terrible you just want to turn it off after an hour.

For what it's worth, after an hour of Tidal streaming, I didn't really want to hear more. An hour of Tidal HiFi, Spotify Premium, or my USB all leave me wanting to keep driving.

 

[Zacster]

Definitely a good test for comparisons. Percussion tends to get muted/smudged by the compression. Another track I use for testing is Blue Oyster Cult's I Love the Night. There is a quiet tick, tick, tick percussion that gets smudged out on Spotify. It sounds like the drummer is hitting a closed snare cymbal.


It takes a lot longer, but one of my primary metrics for audio quality is whether I feel any fatigure after an hour of listening. Sound differences can be pretty subtle and hard to pull out during listening tests, and also your ears and brain starts playing tricks on you after even 15 minutes or so. But if it's tuned badly, I can always tell by an hour long listening test and whether I want more, or if I want to turn it off. It's like the effect of listening to AM radio- you had the sound and the music, but it's so terrible you just want to turn it off after an hour.

For what it's worth, after an hour of Tidal streaming, I didn't really want to hear more. An hour of Tidal HiFi, Spotify Premium, or my USB all leave me wanting to keep driving.

Usually it didn't take me an hour. 15-20 minutes and I'd had enough. But Tidal Hifi does sound much better and the tweaks you suggested have smoothed it out too. I had "Jagged Little Pill" on through the entire album, and Alanis's voice alone could make you turn it off but she sounded really good. Even my wife thought so and she's usually quicker than me to turn it off.

 

[Nick77]

Definitely a good test for comparisons. Percussion tends to get muted/smudged by the compression. Another track I use for testing is Blue Oyster Cult's I Love the Night. There is a quiet tick, tick, tick percussion that gets smudged out on Spotify. It sounds like the drummer is hitting a closed snare cymbal.

I think you're talking about a closed hi-hat. Plenty of examples of these in music. Stewart Copeland of the Police in particular. Message In A Bottle is full of brilliant hi-hat work. Particularly the middle part of the song from 2:10 onwards.

 

[Sunvalleylaw]

All helpful, folks. Thanks! It will end up working well for me, along with a USB drive option, hoping that eventually the player gets a little better in terms of use. Glad I am already a Tidal guy, and that it will be a decent car option for me.

 

[EricB45]

Is there any way to stop the irritating invitations to log on to Tidal?
I have no desire to subscribe, but my Model 3 keeps offering it since the last update. Very annoying.

 

[MrBadger]

Is there any way to stop the irritating invitations to log on to Tidal?
I have no desire to subscribe, but my Model 3 keeps offering it since the last update. Very annoying.

Just a guess but have you turned off Tidal as a source?

 

[Durzel]

If one were to use an Argentinian VPN server one might find that the cost of TIDAL HiFi works out to be about 75p/month (new accounts only).

One might also find that you only need to use the server to sign up, not to play anything, and that it makes no difference in what you can play.

This is of course at your own risk. Do not pass Go, etc.

 

[gangzoom]

Forget audio quality, the Tidal 'radio' algorithm seems to know what a grump teenaged me from the late 1990s use to spend days trying to put together using a combination of tapes, 3.5mm jack cables, new fangled 'portable' CD players all to enjoy on £2.99 headphones whilst crammed on the school bus. Don't know how Tidal has nailed the song lists but hope the 'radio' function comes to the car app sooner rather than later .

Mean while my 5 year old daughter these days thinks the world is over if she cannot get the exact Frozen 2 song to play on Karaoke within 10 seconds of asking for it......the world has changed quite a lot (and am just getting old) .

 

[MrBadger]

I found Tidal logged out when I went to try and use it mid drive. A right PITA especially as it could only be logged in via scanning the QR code on the phone not helped by marginal mobile signal so needed a second attempt for the car to pick up that QR ode had been accepted by Tidal link.

This will wear thin very quick if its a regular occurrence.

 

[Nick77]

Forget audio quality, the Tidal 'radio' algorithm seems to know what a grump teenaged me from the late 1990s use to spend days trying to put together using a combination of tapes, 3.5mm jack cables, new fangled 'portable' CD players all to enjoy on £2.99 headphones whilst crammed on the school bus. Don't know how Tidal has nailed the song lists but hope the 'radio' function comes to the car app sooner rather than later .

Mean while my 5 year old daughter these days thinks the world is over if she cannot get the exact Frozen 2 song to play on Karaoke within 10 seconds of asking for it......the world has changed quite a lot (and am just getting old) .

Yes!!

I'm 100% a 90s Britpop kid. I play guitar and everything

 

[Sunvalleylaw]

Yes!!

I'm 100% a 90s Britpop kid. I play guitar and everything

Being from Tacoma, WA, I add in a good dose of PNW with my Brit tunes. But with you guys.

 

[bo3bdar]

Calling all geezer rockers- Can you do a test listen for me to confirm/deny the differences I hear in a song? The song is Blue Oyster Cult- Cities on Flame with Rock and Roll.

When I listen to the song on Tidal streaming it sounds terrible. Boomy bass, muted highs. When I compare with Spotify Premium I think there is no question that Spotify sounds better and more balanced. I'm not positive I'm getting the same masters, but I think so.


I'm only looking at the Tidal Streaming for this case, I'm trying to decide if that streaming vs. download is going to work for me. I really like the HiFi downloads, but really am not keen on that mechanism over WiFi. If their streaming AAC encoder can botch songs, that makes it less interesting.