Tired of the $100,000 Car

[arisythila]

Just spent 164k on my MS. I picked up a majority of "addons" because they are what I needed/wanted in order to purchase the car. I wanted a 300 mile range on a single charge, because we often go to our beach house that is ~120 miles away one way. I also wanted to be able to put my whole family (6 of us) in the car.

Model S interior was is very similar, as from the drive train, and battery packs, I could have stuck with a 100D or something, but they didn't have one of those at the time.

Each persons reasons is different for purchasing a vehicle. I do not regret my purchase, at lease right now. Put 350 miles on my MS right now. I traded in my 2014 Nissan GTR for this car. So have had high priced 100+K cars before. IMO, the Tesla is more refined than the GTR. But I also got the premium package, and the Model X seats, and stuff.

 

[lklundin]

How do you figure? All else being equal, you've increased the weight, slowing down the same engine (acceleration-wise). About
the only thing you get "automatically" might be increased range.

The increase in stored energy also allows for an increase in the peak power draw.

 

[RogerHScott]

That's not even remotely true. The original 60, 85, and P85 all have exactly the same motor. The 60 was limited by battery power. The 85 was limited below the P85 by software. The 60 compared to the P85 is 6 second vs 4 second car strictly based on how much voltage the car could put out at 1300 amps. The 0-60 difference would be even greater had the P85 not been traction limited.

Now we're getting into exactly what is meant by "battery size". I think the simplest interpretation of "size" is kWh capacity, all else
equal. That's the simple "bigger gas tank" analogy. If you start bringing current delivery capability into it now you're talking about
better fuel lines, fuel pump, carburetor, and maybe even pistons. Also, had Tesla wanted to, they could have designed an equal "size"
(i.e., 60kWh) battery with higher output that would have had less range. So battery size and speed are really fairly independent.

 

[RogerHScott]

The increase in stored energy also allows for an increase in the peak power draw.

I don't think that follows automatically. You could have one, the other, or both. Tesla, so far, has always advanced both at least
somewhat with each new battery version.

 

[ecarfan]

Is anyone else tired of all the people that exaggerate the price, just to make the point that it should be as luxurious and perfect as ice cars in the $100,000 price range?

I have no idea what you mean by "exaggerate the price". The Model S price ranges from mid $60K up to about $135K. Whatever the price, it includes an amazing and revolutionary all electric drivetrain -- and an incredible high speed DC charging network -- that after more than four years no other automobile manufacturer has even come close to matching.

There is no such thing as a "perfect" ICE car. They are all deeply flawed because none of them has the electric drivetrain that the cheapest Model S includes as standard.

Your post makes no sense to me.

 

[jbcarioca]

... So battery size and speed are really fairly independent.

I agree with your post, but I would word the quoted phrase as "so battery size and power output are not linear". Possibly too indirect. Power output is clearly dependent on available stored energy but with battery construction one can optimise instantaneous power output, battery longevity and dozens of other factors. So a 60kWh 2012 S is not equal to a 60 kWh 2016 S, nor for that matter a 60 kWh Bolt. I suppose I am just being pedantic.

 

[number12]

Why do you jump to the conclusion that the Tesla would be their only vehicle? I suspect much less than 10% of Tesla owners do not
also own an ICE car.

My wording was bad. But I meant most people have to have another car.

Hence another argue want that their income needs to be much more than $100,000

 

[RogerHScott]

My wording was bad. But I meant most people have to have another car.

Hence another argue want that their income needs to be much more than $100,000

Sure, but the cost of a secondary ICE car is pretty much insignificant compared to the cost of a Tesla, especially considering
that most Tesla owners already have said ICE car at the time the buy their Tesla.

 

[Rich Meister]

I'll chime in, my $15k chevy cruze has better fit n finish than some referenced $50k tesla.

 

[jbcarioca]

I'll chime in, my $15k chevy cruze has better fit n finish than some referenced $50k tesla.

Someone may wan to shoot me for this, but entry level car with few options almost always has been fit and finish and reliability than does any high end car. Service may be another story.

 

[SoccerMan94043]

I'm shocked by your ignorance. My point was the fit and finish should be compared to a $55,000 ice car. When your paying upwards of $100,000 you are paying for a very large battery and the technology that makes it go so freaking fast. Your not paying for better fit and finish.

Coming from a ~55K Audi, the fit and finish of my Tesla isn't even close. I'm guessing a 25K toyota is better, but I don't have one to compare.

 

[number12]

Fit and finish has been mentioned like 5200 times and counting.

Is everyone talking about door gaps and FWDs?

Are these issues not corrected and or not wrong to begin with?

Just trying to understand.

Lack of luxury Bc it's a tech car I get that arguments, but just want some clarification. What is better about a 15k Cruze vs a tesla?

 

[ThosEM]

Bottom line: The Model S has the better resale value at any given point in its life...

 

[Max*]

Teslas don't get faster just from a battery size increase from 75kWh to 90 or 100kWh.

What makes the S90/100 faster are the larger motors and the larger connectors to allow more current to flow - not the battery itself.

If I took the battery from a 100D and swapped it into my 60D, the car would not be any faster and would likely be slower due to the increased weight and no increased power output from the motors.

Except you are 100% wrong.

I forgot who, wk057 or ingineer, did just that. Replaced an old salvaged S60 battery and put in an 85kwh battery and turned it into a P85 with a software/firmware update.

Now, there are limits, the ludicrious has a different fuse, the 100D does things differently too. But you should be able to take a 90kwh battery into a 60kwh car, and get the performance of the 90D with a software/firmware update.

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Some drive a lot and use the supercharging network vs paying for gas (even premium gas is cheap but it's still a cost).

Some like autopilot and will spend a bit more for that.

Some like the idea of putting on solar and being less dependent on the oil companies and the electric co.

Some like the idea of a car built and made in a certain country.

Some (a great many) have built spreadsheets out and assume that with fuel and maintenance savings, an EV can, when compared to a high end German car, will be the same, or less expensive.

Some live in steep hills and can reduce paying for a full brake job every 20-25K miles.

Most who drive an EV, will be quoted as saying "I'm pretty sure I'm never going back to an ICE car if I can help it."

 

[deonb]

Also, had Tesla wanted to, they could have designed an equal "size"
(i.e., 60kWh) battery with higher output that would have had less range. So battery size and speed are really fairly independent.

No they couldn't have. Not without overdrawing the batteries. At max performance they're drawing as much power as you can from each individual Lithium cell without prematurely destroying it. They can't just re-arrange the cells to get more power - they need to increase the number of cells.

 

[lklundin]

I don't think that follows automatically. You could have one, the other, or both. Tesla, so far, has always advanced both at least
somewhat with each new battery version.

Really?

Given a battery cell with open-circuit voltage V, maximum current A, and internal resistance R, how would you connect two of these _without_ increasing either the total open-circuit voltage V or the total maximum current A ?

Feel free to generalize and provide an example for going from f.ex. N = 444 * 16 to f.ex. 480 * 16.

Alternatively, given a battery pack of N cells, each with open-circuit voltage V, maximum current A, and internal resistance R, feel free to explain how one could increase V or A (e.g. by lowering R), _without_ increasing the peak available power.

 

[WATTS-UP]

OK Max, so will I be able to switch my 60kw for a 120kw. I don't need more power/speed just a little more range.

 

[Max*]

OK Max, so will I be able to switch my 60kw for a 120kw. I don't need more power/speed just a little more range.

Not will, should. I never said you WILL be able to do it. I said wk057 or ingineer have done it.

Tesla has stated that the $22.5k ($25k - $2.5k core return) for a new 90kwh battery is only available for the 85kwh batteries, not for the 60/70kwh batteries. So at the moment, even if it's possible, you'd need to go to a 3rd party approach.

In the future? who knows what Tesla will or wont do.

 

[Rich Meister]

Fit and finish has been mentioned like 5200 times and counting.

Is everyone talking about door gaps and FWDs?

Are these issues not corrected and or not wrong to begin with?

Just trying to understand.

Lack of luxury Bc it's a tech car I get that arguments, but just want some clarification. What is better about a 15k Cruze vs a tesla?

gaps, poor prep, poor paint, missing paint, fwd creaking sound, popping sound, fwd not flush w/ the top of the car, hood not aligned, rear bumper not aligned, chrome piece falling apart, rubber molding falling apart, wind noise from said failing rubber molding,. the list is quite long and seem to be adding more to the list before i get to actually drop it off to the SC.