deonb
Active Member
If you increase the gas tank size on a combustion car, you don't get a faster car.
If you increase the battery size on an EV, you get a faster car.
So no. The battery is not analogous to the gas tank.
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Tired of the $100,000 Car
- Thread starter ⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
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- Model S
If you increase the gas tank size on a combustion car, you don't get a faster car.
If you increase the battery size on an EV, you get a faster car.
So no. The battery is not analogous to the gas tank.
And those issues are...? So are you saying it doesn't even measure up to $10,000 car, fit and finish wise? Be careful they might call you a troll
I'd say that a leaking panoramic roof is something I'd shout about even with a $10 000 car for sure. Doors not aligned is another thing.
deonb
Active Member
The difference between a BMW 528i and an M5 is similar. It's performance only but in theory not fit and finish. However, it would not be an out of place complaint to say: "This M5 is a $100k car - and it should have fit and finish behooving of one".
Either way, Teslas treatment of someone buying a vehicle at $140k and someone buying a vehicle at $70k is probably the bigger issue here. When the Model 3 comes around, will Tesla still be doling out loaners on a first come first serve basis, or will the P120QLL get priority? Because it will be a problem if "equal" treatment remains the way it is right now.
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The remarkable thing about the Model S is it straddles so many different buyer types.
When I bought a Porsche Cayman S I noticed how mediocre the interior was compared to Audi's, but no one in the Porsche forums really cared all that much. They only cared about performance. Lots of performance people have purchased the Model S as their everyday car, and I doubt they really care all that much about the fit/finish. In fact they're so obsessed with drag times one has to wonder if they're not addicts. Where they no longer got the kick they needed out of the insane mode so they had to convert to the ludicrous mode. Whatever their reasons are they're an essential part of Tesla.
The converts from a Prius, Leaf or a Volt probably don't care that much either. They got a taste of what they wanted with their prior car, and the Tesla is the step up.
There are some converts like myself who are all over the map with our automobiles that we tone our expectations based on what role the car performs for us. I never really saw it as a luxury sedan and I kind of barf at the thought of even owning one. Sure the Audi S4 I had was pretty nice, but it was still tuned for speed and handling. It certainly wasn't free of rattles.
I've never actually owned a rattle free car. Maybe Lexus makes one, but I would never own a Lexus (except the super car one)
I've never owned a car where I thought the paint job was even close to being what it should be. It's really incredible what aftermarket stuff can do for paint. It's actually pretty insane, but from the factory it all seems to be weak.
When I bought a Porsche Cayman S I noticed how mediocre the interior was compared to Audi's, but no one in the Porsche forums really cared all that much. They only cared about performance. Lots of performance people have purchased the Model S as their everyday car, and I doubt they really care all that much about the fit/finish. In fact they're so obsessed with drag times one has to wonder if they're not addicts. Where they no longer got the kick they needed out of the insane mode so they had to convert to the ludicrous mode. Whatever their reasons are they're an essential part of Tesla.
The converts from a Prius, Leaf or a Volt probably don't care that much either. They got a taste of what they wanted with their prior car, and the Tesla is the step up.
There are some converts like myself who are all over the map with our automobiles that we tone our expectations based on what role the car performs for us. I never really saw it as a luxury sedan and I kind of barf at the thought of even owning one. Sure the Audi S4 I had was pretty nice, but it was still tuned for speed and handling. It certainly wasn't free of rattles.
I've never actually owned a rattle free car. Maybe Lexus makes one, but I would never own a Lexus (except the super car one)
I've never owned a car where I thought the paint job was even close to being what it should be. It's really incredible what aftermarket stuff can do for paint. It's actually pretty insane, but from the factory it all seems to be weak.
I have been in an Audi A8. My take? Sure the Audi is probably more luxurious, but it is definitely not a better car. It lacks the instant torque the tesla have. It make a low grubbling noise all the time. It is quite noiser when you full throttle. You get tons of buttons and dials and no intuitive way of figuring what they actually do. Sure the tesla is more barebone but it is simple and clean and luxurious enough for me. To me luxury goes beyond the feel of the ride. It is also the luxury of my time. EV are inherently more simple and easier to maintain. The Audi? Probably not. I don't want to spend time oiling and changing all these fluid and etc after a few 10Ks miles. That is really luxury to me. Not having to fill up at a dirty petrol station? That is luxury to me. Not having to stop at a gas station every week just from my commute to work and back is luxury to me.
Let me guess you are going to argue all EV does that. Why not get one of those. Then I will say the luxury of driving 300+ miles and easy cross country driving is luxury. Then you are going to argue that most if not all car manufacture is working on their own luxury brand EV. Why not wait for those. I say look at their charging infrastructure. Look at when they will come out. All of them will be in late 2018 if not later. I rather drive luxury now not later. That is luxury to me.
So there is more to luxury than what is in the car. Consider that and get back to me.
Just FYI, Tesla's goal is not prosperity.
They spend everything they earn and more on putting as many BEV's on the road as they can.
deonb
Active Member
Wait... Did anybody tell the shareholders that? What is that I hear about a $1 trillion company?
As kids some of us were into motors, body shapes and how a given car would perform or yield to modifications, as in would this other engine be able to fit in. Other kids were into price: "how much did that cost, mister?" I assumed those kids came home from school everyday and watched The Price Is Right. How else to explain their nonsensical focus on cost. We were into what cars actually were and what they could do.
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Funny you say that because that's how Lexus became so successful. It's called customer service. If you don't think the guy buying a 35k car works as hard as the guy buying a 100k car and should not be treated the same that says a lot about yourself. You might be the problem.
It may not be obvious to people that do not follow the auto industry closely, but quality and reliability is much better for $55k (and $20k) cars than $100k cars.
High volume manufacturing is a key enabler, you just cannot get the same quality or reliability from low volume, regardless of price. This is especially true for hand crafted cars that often sell for $1M.
I should clarify that quality is defined as the car actually being built to its engineering specification. It is not about how high the specifications are.
GSP
deonb
Active Member
Most people buy less car that they can afford - they don't just buy the high end by default. That is especially true with Tesla owners - there are a huge number of Tesla owners where a Tesla is more that twice as expensive as their previous cars. They could have afforded a Mercedes but just didn't want to.
When they DO however spring for more they deserve the better treatment because of more money spent... like you get with any other product.
I happen to own a Leaf (a 35k model) even though I can afford two Teslas. My wife just happen to like the Leaf better as an around town car. (Smaller). But I certainly don't expect the kind of treatment from Nissan as I do from Tesla. The same should apply inside Tesla itself.
Jbailey
Member
I've had luxury s class Mercedes...ok actually my wife drove it exclusively after a while....Lots of padded luxury and gizmos, very quiet....but OMG how boring after a few months and I felt pretentious driving it. No one gave it a second look and pickup trucks would leave me in the dust at traffic lights. No little kids opening the car window next to me giving me the"thumbs up". Basically no excitement while driving isolated from the rest of the world. Ridiculously expensive tuneups oil changes....smelly gas...premium only please.
You can have the Mercedes. It really needed total automomous driving because I think it blew aerosilized Ambien out of the air-vents. I don't think my heart rate ever exceeded 60 while driving it.
Excellent ft and finish though ...nice wood dash...when I was alert enough or cared enough to notice.
The Tesla is such a blast to drive. I never get bored driving it...it is so fricken cool...even after 44, 801 miles in 14 months. Got me a great thermorest mat in the Frunk so can even sleep in it with the AC on....and look at all the new stuff...camping mode, cabin overheat protection that will save the lives of kids and pets on and on and on.
With the Mercedes you have the same boring car year after year and have to pay a fortune for a new one just to get the marginal improvements....except of course the yearly GPS map update which you have to pay for. Free coffee and snacks while you sit in the waiting area waiting for your map updates and the several hundred dollar oil change and tune up watching prospective customers sitting apprehensively in cubicles being worn down by slick talking salesmen flashing their fake smiles and probably fake Rolexes sitting in fake wood desks surrounded by their salesman of the month plaques...treating you like their best friend willing to go to bat for you and convince the sales manager to give you the best deal of a lifetime..."even if they lose money" . "how much can you afford a month" "Oh and how about an extended warranty?" " We'll even finance it for you"...
I picture hell as a huge car lot full of salesmen running up to great you when you drive up.
You can have the Mercedes. It really needed total automomous driving because I think it blew aerosilized Ambien out of the air-vents. I don't think my heart rate ever exceeded 60 while driving it.
Excellent ft and finish though ...nice wood dash...when I was alert enough or cared enough to notice.
The Tesla is such a blast to drive. I never get bored driving it...it is so fricken cool...even after 44, 801 miles in 14 months. Got me a great thermorest mat in the Frunk so can even sleep in it with the AC on....and look at all the new stuff...camping mode, cabin overheat protection that will save the lives of kids and pets on and on and on.
With the Mercedes you have the same boring car year after year and have to pay a fortune for a new one just to get the marginal improvements....except of course the yearly GPS map update which you have to pay for. Free coffee and snacks while you sit in the waiting area waiting for your map updates and the several hundred dollar oil change and tune up watching prospective customers sitting apprehensively in cubicles being worn down by slick talking salesmen flashing their fake smiles and probably fake Rolexes sitting in fake wood desks surrounded by their salesman of the month plaques...treating you like their best friend willing to go to bat for you and convince the sales manager to give you the best deal of a lifetime..."even if they lose money" . "how much can you afford a month" "Oh and how about an extended warranty?" " We'll even finance it for you"...
I picture hell as a huge car lot full of salesmen running up to great you when you drive up.
The EV powertrain is a luxury feature. It is a superior method to power a car. Instant, silent, smooth power all the time. No engine warmup. "Full Tank" every morning when you wake up. They are more fun to drive, and more convenient than ICE cars.
However, most people do not want this luxury option.
I honesty believe the early Hybrids threw a Baby Ruth bar in the swimming pool. People were offered an inferior powertrain at a premium price, and government tried to push them to the masses with Gas Guzzler fees, HOV stickers, etc.
And guess what? Even on this board you see it. People want the Model 3 to be packed with features to make it a comparable value to it's cheaper-to-build ICE brethren. And many want more standard features on the Model S and X at the same price point, even when Tesla Motors is not showing profits yet. "My Audi has it, so why doesn't a Tesla come with it? Heck, the Tesla is $20k more!!!" The Tesla costs more because of it's most expensive option: The world's most powerful pure electric automotive powertrain. Everything you like about the EV experience, but with a huge bang. Even the cheapest Teslas are quicker in the real world than other cars in their price range.
Two things have to happen for mass EV adoption:
The price goes down to ICE levels.
The misconceptions that Weak Arse Hybrids implanted.
Some will point at the Prius as a success story, which indeed is the largest selling car with more than 12 volts in it's battery. But the Prius is not a success story. It doesn't sell as well as the Camry or Corolla even when gasoline is $5 a gallon. You get less car for your money with the Prius and it's performance is not on par with ICE cars in it's price range.
Elon Musk says EVs will sell when somebody makes one that is Compelling. I believe that assumption is incorrect. I believe they will buy them when the MSRP of the ICE models and EVs match. A Camry is NOT compelling. A Corolla is NOT compelling. And a Prius is the opposite of the Compelling.
However, most people do not want this luxury option.
I honesty believe the early Hybrids threw a Baby Ruth bar in the swimming pool. People were offered an inferior powertrain at a premium price, and government tried to push them to the masses with Gas Guzzler fees, HOV stickers, etc.
And guess what? Even on this board you see it. People want the Model 3 to be packed with features to make it a comparable value to it's cheaper-to-build ICE brethren. And many want more standard features on the Model S and X at the same price point, even when Tesla Motors is not showing profits yet. "My Audi has it, so why doesn't a Tesla come with it? Heck, the Tesla is $20k more!!!" The Tesla costs more because of it's most expensive option: The world's most powerful pure electric automotive powertrain. Everything you like about the EV experience, but with a huge bang. Even the cheapest Teslas are quicker in the real world than other cars in their price range.
Two things have to happen for mass EV adoption:
The price goes down to ICE levels.
The misconceptions that Weak Arse Hybrids implanted.
Some will point at the Prius as a success story, which indeed is the largest selling car with more than 12 volts in it's battery. But the Prius is not a success story. It doesn't sell as well as the Camry or Corolla even when gasoline is $5 a gallon. You get less car for your money with the Prius and it's performance is not on par with ICE cars in it's price range.
Elon Musk says EVs will sell when somebody makes one that is Compelling. I believe that assumption is incorrect. I believe they will buy them when the MSRP of the ICE models and EVs match. A Camry is NOT compelling. A Corolla is NOT compelling. And a Prius is the opposite of the Compelling.
jelloslug
Active Member
The Rich Like Other Luxury Brands Over Tesla (TSLA), UBS Survey Shows
UBS analyst Colin Langan weighed on Tesla Motors (NASDAQ: TSLA) after results of their survey which showed high income households choose other premium brands over Tesla.
The firm's UBS Evidence Lab Electric Vehicle Survey of 9,400 individuals across 6 countries shows that coming BEV models mostly meet consumer expectations and that BEV penetration is likely to take off in premium first. Within the results we see that highincome households ($100k+) strongly prefer other luxury and quasi-luxury brands over Tesla.
When polling all individuals on whether they prefer buying an all-electric car from incumbent brands vs. TSLA, only 13-31% of respondents said they are likely to choose an incumbent brand compared to 20-44% who would choose Tesla. However, when looking at only $100k+ income households, 41-52% would choose an incumbent brand compared to only 20-29% who would choose Tesla.
"Given that we believe high-income households are more likely to purchase a Tesla, these results suggest that Tesla will face stiff competition as other premium OEMs begin to launch their own EV models in 2018," .Langan said. "We remain cautious on Model S demand as a result."
Further, the survey showed 43% consider 200 miles an acceptable minimum range for a single charge (Model 3 is expected to be ~200 miles). This percentage increases to 69% for 300 miles (expected range of upcoming German premium brands).
In addition, with all else being equal, 54% of respondents would expect an EV to be cheaper or the same cost as the equivalent ICE vehicle. However, based on calls with EV experts, they expect EVs to cost 11-20% more. Consumers also underestimate the cost of the battery pack. The median US consumer expects a replacement EV battery to cost $2,001-5,000 (weighted average of $4,200). They estimate that with repair cost, the battery replacement will cost ~$7,000 by 2025.
The firm maintained a Sell rating and price target of $160 on TSLA.
UBS analyst Colin Langan weighed on Tesla Motors (NASDAQ: TSLA) after results of their survey which showed high income households choose other premium brands over Tesla.
The firm's UBS Evidence Lab Electric Vehicle Survey of 9,400 individuals across 6 countries shows that coming BEV models mostly meet consumer expectations and that BEV penetration is likely to take off in premium first. Within the results we see that highincome households ($100k+) strongly prefer other luxury and quasi-luxury brands over Tesla.
When polling all individuals on whether they prefer buying an all-electric car from incumbent brands vs. TSLA, only 13-31% of respondents said they are likely to choose an incumbent brand compared to 20-44% who would choose Tesla. However, when looking at only $100k+ income households, 41-52% would choose an incumbent brand compared to only 20-29% who would choose Tesla.
"Given that we believe high-income households are more likely to purchase a Tesla, these results suggest that Tesla will face stiff competition as other premium OEMs begin to launch their own EV models in 2018," .Langan said. "We remain cautious on Model S demand as a result."
Further, the survey showed 43% consider 200 miles an acceptable minimum range for a single charge (Model 3 is expected to be ~200 miles). This percentage increases to 69% for 300 miles (expected range of upcoming German premium brands).
In addition, with all else being equal, 54% of respondents would expect an EV to be cheaper or the same cost as the equivalent ICE vehicle. However, based on calls with EV experts, they expect EVs to cost 11-20% more. Consumers also underestimate the cost of the battery pack. The median US consumer expects a replacement EV battery to cost $2,001-5,000 (weighted average of $4,200). They estimate that with repair cost, the battery replacement will cost ~$7,000 by 2025.
The firm maintained a Sell rating and price target of $160 on TSLA.
NigelM
Recovering Member
somnambule
Member
This is a "survey" done by a firm with a "sell" rating on TSLA. Since when did UBS, or any other financial company, become trusted sources of unbiased surveys? Lots of ways to bias a survey to back up what you want to say. For starters, it's not even clear if their sample size is big enough (what % of the 9400 individuals were in the $100K+ income range)?
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