Torque and Horsepower upgrade kits on M3P?

[butterscotch]

Hi guys,

I know there is a performance boost kit/controller type of thing for SR and LR but is there any for the M3P to unleash more horsepower and torque? I believe the hardware has the capability to output a lot more for the track performance but the software is limiting it. If anyone knows there is such thing that exists, could you help point the direction? A bunch of us track lovers would very much like some extra torque and horsepower to get a faster lap time.

Cheers.

 

[jjrandorin]

There isnt anything. Even the things you see for the SR and LR, the only thing those aftermarket kits do is fool into thinking its another model. Like, telling the SR that its a LR, or telling the LR that it is the LR with the Acceleration boost.

No one is currently producing any real boost kits or anything that do something different than the above. People keep thinking "there is more there" for the model 3 P, and there may or may not be, but until someone actually cracks the software and does some real tuning (instead of simply telling the car its a different version), we wont find out.

 

[jkeyser14]

There isnt anything. Even the things you see for the SR and LR, the only thing those aftermarket kits do is fool into thinking its another model. Like, telling the SR that its a LR, or telling the LR that it is the LR with the Acceleration boost.

No one is currently producing any real boost kits or anything that do something different than the above. People keep thinking "there is more there" for the model 3 P, and there may or may not be, but until someone actually cracks the software and does some real tuning (instead of simply telling the car its a different version), we wont find out.

Actually, the current hacks don't fake a different model, they intercept the signal going to the motor inverters to command more power than factory computer was commanding. I don't think they are pushing the limits because it could involve damaging hardware. By limiting the power output to M3P levels they know the power levels are safe because Tesla is already shipping cars like that.

 

[Knightshade]

Actually, the current hacks don't fake a different model, they intercept the signal going to the motor inverters to command more power than factory computer was commanding.

I don't believe that's true.

Otherwise they could just command whatever power level they wished-- it wouldn't turn out in every case to be exactly the power level of an existing config


We've seen the same thing with earlier hacks done by Jason Hughes and others who could only upgrade cars to configs that exist from Tesla.

(at one point he even went so far as to build a "fake" front motor so the car thought it was in an AWD, thus allowing him to build an actually-rwd P90D)


Further- for the "full P" kit, they have to actually flash the motor (which is why they need remote access to your car, and you have to check with them before doing any software updates to the car after that--- if the offering was just a physical bit of HW doing man-in-the-middle on signals they wouldn't need to access your vehicle at all)

I don't think they are pushing the limits because it could involve damaging hardware. By limiting the power output to M3P levels they know the power levels are safe because Tesla is already shipping cars like that.

I don't think they're pushing the limits because they literally can't.

Otherwise they'd easily be able to do their own testing of what seems to be within the systems capabilities- and sell it with a disclaimer.

(hell they ALREADY sell the existing ones with a massive one that basically says "If tesla updates the car so this doesn't work anymore, no refunds")

 

[butterscotch]

Just to throw it out there for more discussion, I know Elon once said there will be ludicrous mode for the M3P but haven't yet delivered. Which sounds to me that there definitely is more the car can output but Elon either doesn't want to or completely forgot about it.

 

[Knightshade]

Just to throw it out there for more discussion, I know Elon once said there will be ludicrous mode for the M3P but haven't yet delivered. Which sounds to me that there definitely is more the car can output but Elon either doesn't want to or completely forgot about it.

He said that before the car was even finished- about 15 months before the first production vehicle was actually delivered to anyone.... and well over -2 years- before the first P was actually built and delivered to anybody.

I wouldn't base anything at all on that early statement.

 

[jjrandorin]

He said that before the car was even finished- about 15 months before the first production vehicle was actually delivered to anyone.... and well over -2 years- before the first P was actually built and delivered to anybody.

I wouldn't base anything at all on that early statement.

To corroborate this, here are a couple of screenshots that show the date this statement was made:

Then, of course, there was the obligatory electrek article that simply made an article out of elons tweet above. Not linking the article, but the date is clearly visible in this screenshot:

Model 3s were not delivered till late 2017, and there has been no comment on this topic since then. Model 3s have received a couple of speed bumps, including Ps since launch. There have been no comments at all for a speed bump for model 3Ps. Some speculated it was because they didnt want the Model 3P to be faster than model S, which is a reasonable assumption.

Now that there is no chance of that, if this was possible, you would think tesla would be all over it (just like the acceleration boost for AWD vehicles, because it would be basically free money with additional physical work on their part, it if was possible. I dont think this would happen until there is either the new battery styles in model 3s OR they decide to add an additional motor to the vehicle similar to plaid model s.

 

[Sukhshanti]

Elon forgot about us M3P owners! Pretty sad that an LR with boost upgrade beats us from a roll. If I didn't get my stealth at the same price as a LR AWD 3 I would be pissed.

 

[Knightshade]

Elon forgot about us M3P owners! Pretty sad that an LR with boost upgrade beats us from a roll. If I didn't get my stealth at the same price as a LR AWD 3 I would be pissed.

That would be sad if it were true- it's not though.

 

[gearchruncher]

To add to all of this- one of the reasons you can't just ask for more power in an EV is the battery. The battery has it's own fusing and current sensing, and it will likely disconnect if you draw too much power. Remember how when they added Ludacris to the S, there was all that big deal talk about a "superalloy" Inconel fuse?

Even if someone did get the motor to request more power, the battery would likely shut it down. Now you need to also change the battery firmware, and maybe even update a physical fuse.

 

[subieworx]

I want more power....

I run Gridlife Time Attack with mine and while it is awesome coming out of corners it does not have nearly enough top end to hang with the class leader. Comparing data at the event this past weekend at MId Ohio the winning Subaru making 420whp was 11mph faster down the back straight than I was in my M3P.

 

[Ren.OG]

Elon mentioned that the new Model S Plaid motors are wrapped in a carbon type material to keep the rotating mass intact, if not it will break apart and cause catastrophic failure.

I'm thinking that the current Model 3 motors are also susceptible to this failure. If the motors are working harder than intended, results could be bad.

 

[gearchruncher]

I'm thinking that the current Model 3 motors are also susceptible to this failure

Why?

The carbon wrapping is for RPM. The Plaid can do over 200 MPH and has the same gear ratios as a Model 3, which can do about 150. Loads go up by square of RPM, and the plaid motor is larger diameter. It likely has 2-3X the load as a Model 3 rotor.

Have you ever heard of a Model 3 rotor coming apart?

This is only something to be concerned about if you actually drive faster than the original top speed, not just if you put out more watts.

 

[Ren.OG]

Have you ever heard of a Model 3 rotor coming apart?

If you increase output of the motors then you will reach a higher top speed and in turn increase RPM's possibly beyond the point of intended use.
Thats all i'm saying.

 

[gearchruncher]

If you increase output of the motors then you will reach a higher top speed and in turn increase RPM's possibly beyond the point of intended use.

Not for sure. You could increase current (torque) at RPM's where the motor is current limited, and but make no changes to the regime where it's voltage limited. It won't have more power at 155 MPH, but it will at 40 MPH. You'll get to 155 MPH faster, but won't go faster.

Also, the current top speed of 162 MPH is already electronically limited- if you don't delete this, more power doesn't mean faster. Just like many ICE cars with redlines and MPH limits, you can up the power within the existing band without increasing the envelope.

We are agreed that if you just try to spin a Model 3 motor at 200 MPH, it likely will not survive. I assume most people here are not talking about top speed runs, but actually going faster on a track in a street car where 150 MPH is already very fast, but the Model 3 suffers in the 100+ MPH range. I'd happily take a faster 80-130 time even if it didn't change the top speed.

There are some fundamental reasons this isn't really possible with just software- the hardware changes they made to the Plaid are amazing in the way they allow it to maintain the same HP throughout the RPM band, and can't just be applied via a SW patch.

 

[Sam1]

There are some fundamental reasons this isn't really possible with just software- the hardware changes they made to the Plaid are amazing in the way they allow it to maintain the same HP throughout the RPM band, and can't just be applied via a SW patch.

you think this it's possible the car's motors may be capable of much more than we think they are and they're restricted from for most/all of the rpm band?

 

[Candleflame]

I don't believe that's true.

Otherwise they could just command whatever power level they wished-- it wouldn't turn out in every case to be exactly the power level of an existing config


I don't think they're pushing the limits because they literally can't.

Otherwise they'd easily be able to do their own testing of what seems to be within the systems capabilities- and sell it with a disclaimer.

Afaik they can do exactly that but the inverter for the 3 is already maxed out and simply cannot supply more wh to the motor.
I guess the inverter could be swapped but that would be quite a big project as they have to be specifically tuned. I think how much headroom the motor of the 3 has is not clear but given that motor failures are so rare I'm sure they arent run anywhere near full load...

As for the Tesla boosting the acceleration of the 3 - I doubt that will happen as they want the S to be faster than the 3. And the non-plaid refreshed Model S already struggles against the performance 3. On paper the S is a tiny bit faster (0.2s i think) - but unfortunately without cheetah mode. soft summer tires and proper prepped launch the 3 just leaves it behind during the takeoff. after 100km/h its quicker but most drag races are over then.

 

[jkeyser14]

If you increase output of the motors then you will reach a higher top speed and in turn increase RPM's possibly beyond the point of intended use.
Thats all i'm saying.

That's not true at all. The inverter controls speed. It is possible to increase power output while maintaining the same top speed.

 

[Knightshade]

Afaik they can do exactly that but the inverter for the 3 is already maxed out and simply cannot supply more wh to the motor.

But that doesn't apply to the non-P cars involved.

The fact that all 3 products they sell (RWD SR boost, LR AWD boost, and LR AWD 980 ghost) happen to exactly correspond to the output of existing Tesla configs suggests they can't just command any power level they want-- they can only trick the car into thing it's another, existing-config, car.

There's no config higher than the P (and it's certainly possible even Tesla can't make one without HW upgrades)-- but in all the other cases their products are just simulating higher spec existing Tesla vehicles rather than being any sort of custom performance curve.


Again we've seen the same with the mods folks like Jason Hughes and Electrified Garage have done in the past-- they can't do any config that does not exist as something Tesla ever made/sold.

 

[butterscotch]

Not for sure. You could increase current (torque) at RPM's where the motor is current limited, and but make no changes to the regime where it's voltage limited. It won't have more power at 155 MPH, but it will at 40 MPH. You'll get to 155 MPH faster, but won't go faster.

Also, the current top speed of 162 MPH is already electronically limited- if you don't delete this, more power doesn't mean faster. Just like many ICE cars with redlines and MPH limits, you can up the power within the existing band without increasing the envelope.

We are agreed that if you just try to spin a Model 3 motor at 200 MPH, it likely will not survive. I assume most people here are not talking about top speed runs, but actually going faster on a track in a street car where 150 MPH is already very fast, but the Model 3 suffers in the 100+ MPH range. I'd happily take a faster 80-130 time even if it didn't change the top speed.

There are some fundamental reasons this isn't really possible with just software- the hardware changes they made to the Plaid are amazing in the way they allow it to maintain the same HP throughout the RPM band, and can't just be applied via a SW patch.

This is exactly my point. I'd be totally fine with the same top speed but faster 80-130mph time.