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Toyota Bz4X
- Thread starter Vostok
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That, in effect, is an extraordinary admission of defeat in Japan. Very rare to see public admissions of failure in a country where “losing face” is one of the worst things someone can ever experience.
Nissan’s trajectory is very puzzling. They were one of the first to make a “modern” BEV and hence potentially gain an early mover advantage… but then they completely squandered it by doing nothing with it.
Subsequent iterations of the LEAF were just fiddling at the edges. It was many years before they made a long-range version, and they still eschewed active battery cooling despite Tesla proving how important it was. And it took a decade before they introduced a second BEV model (the Ariya, which we still can’t get here). It’s truly puzzling why a company out of the blocks so fast would then do all of that.
And now it’s reached the point where they think the only way they can survive is to join forces with a rival in the BEV space.
As much as the LEAF was mocked, it’s been a very reliable and enjoyable city car for us, and very well made and appointed, despite the GUI/App/telematics part always being clunky (if it worked at all). Service costs have been close to non-existent once we escaped Nissan’s “scheduled servicing” model. And it was the car that seduced us into the world of BEVs, from which we never want to leave.
The original Leaf happened during Carlos Ghosn’s leadership and Andy Palmer was the vehicle development manager. CG also lead the Nissan Renault merger. This did not sit well with other Japanese management and government.
CG was charged with embezzling money and escaped Japan to return to Lebanon. It’s rumoured he did so in a suitcase..
Andy Palmer left to lead Aston Martin for a while which is when the Aston DBX was developed and was originally going to be BEV. He got pushed from Aston and the DBX arrived with ICE power only.
Nissan, like Aston and for a time VW / Audi had a series of board room fights over BEV versus ICE, which delayed the EV transition for a few years. Clearly in Nissan’s case the ICE brigade won but just kept making the Leaf as to stop doing so would lose face.
Someone should make a documentary or movie about this time period in the Automotive Industry history as I’m sure if we knew it all it would make for fascinating viewing.
Maximillan
Member
For Toyota it's a classic case of your strength becoming your weakness. Their legendary reliability (disclaimer- I'm a fan boi) comes partly from their conservative approach to sticking with tried and tested technology, re-using existing modules that work (e.g. commonality in suspension parts), and continuous improvement (incremental progress). Doesn't bode well for such a major technological shift like BEV.
When Toyota developed hybrid decades ago the story of how they did it using a small team of their best engineers is well documented. They need to pull that one off again.
When Toyota developed hybrid decades ago the story of how they did it using a small team of their best engineers is well documented. They need to pull that one off again.
Their marketing is pretty impressive too. Its awesome that they have safety recalls to address issues, but you never hear about them in the media (which they pay a lot to advertise on, coincidently
)If they don't innovate and keep up with technology, they will very soon go from being the big fish in the little pond to the little fish in the big pond. Which bites, because they are capable of so much more.
And the question is can they and will they? Nissan and Honda finally seemed to have gotten the memo, and now get it that BEVs are not just an irritation to their ongoing profitability, but an existential threat.
Honda’s president Toshihiro Mibe said: “We are strapped for time and need to be speedy. In 2030, to be in a good position we need a decision now. The rise of emerging players is becoming faster and stronger. Companies that cannot respond to the changes will be wiped out.”
Can’t get clearer than that… an incredible admission by an established Japanese automaker.
Toyota hasn’t even got that far, and the later they see the writing on the wall, the harder it will be for them to survive.
I agree, they need to turn a legacy problem into an opportunity. They have the skilled people and engineering facilities, its now the vision and stategic direction which needs changing. They can create and be really successful in the post-ICE age.. just need management buy in
"What will all the diesel loving v8 4wders think?" will be something im looking forward to laughing at in motoring website comment sections hahaha
Well only journalists with an agenda or who have a very poor understanding of maths have written that.
It is true that the rate of sales growth of EVs is declining in some markets. That is to be expected as the size of the EV fleet becomes larger, nothing can keep doubling in sales every year forever. So instead of growing, say, 80% in a year, the increase might be 50% in a given country.
However many journalists have then, either deliberately/maliciously, or through sheer ignorance, shortened that be “sales” of EVs are declining.
There is a very, very big difference between “rate of sales growth declining” and “sales declining”. They are almost completely opposite things.
In NSW, EV sales have been growing at an average CAGR (cumulative annual growth rate) of 92% p.a. over the past 5 years. See my post:
Tesla market share of BEVs in NSW
Even your basic Nokia was a lot more than $150 in the day, and combined with say a $500 Palm Pilot, or a BlackBerry, the iPhone wasn't actually that expensive. And compared to your original $2k+ car phones, they were cheap. Now yes they've expanded the market for those willing to buy premium...
teslamotorsclub.com
Yep couple that with very poor offerings from legacy brands and dealerships going out of the way to steer customers away from EV models because they can't gouge them as badly on service costs.Well only journalists with an agenda or who have a very poor understanding of maths have written that.
It is true that the rate of sales growth of EVs is declining in some markets. That is to be expected as the size of the EV fleet becomes larger, nothing can keep doubling in sales every year forever. So instead of growing, say, 80% in a year, the increase might be 50% in a given country.
However many journalists have then, either deliberately/maliciously, or through sheer ignorance, shortened that be “sales” of EVs are declining.
There is a very, very big difference between “rate of sales growth declining” and “sales declining”. They are almost completely opposite things.
In NSW, EV sales have been growing at an average CAGR (cumulative annual growth rate) of 92% p.a. over the past 5 years. See my post:
Tesla market share of BEVs in NSW
Even your basic Nokia was a lot more than $150 in the day, and combined with say a $500 Palm Pilot, or a BlackBerry, the iPhone wasn't actually that expensive. And compared to your original $2k+ car phones, they were cheap. Now yes they've expanded the market for those willing to buy premium...
The drop off in legacy EV sales as a result then gets conflated to "all EVs are not selling" which is laughable given Tesla have the highest selling vehicle in the world.
Click bait and laziness is all it comes down to.
and snipping a photo of the export yard in shanghai of all the cars waiting to be shipped with the caption "Look at all these EVS stockpiled that they cant sell"
Zoltrix77
Member
Look what I found when driving past the local Toyota dealer.
My half baked summary:
- Looks like a Toyota, thats fine, its not horrib,e
- Interior / Dash is horrible. SOOOOO much piano back, like every door and the centre console.
- Interior feels plasticy, like the RAV4 right next to it felt tougher and cohesive.
- Stupid drive selector is really dinky and makes loud spring noises.
- Instrument screen looks like a 20 year old portable DVD player.
- Rear seat is low, like you get in the back of a Model 3, knees up. but plenty of room between rear and front seat, just cant get feet under the front seats.
- Why do they insist on a power button?
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- Extra bonus points for a regular indicator stalk on the correct side and a wiper stalk however.
- Didn't drive it, but almost guarantee the suspension is more suited to daily driving that a Model Y!
Beside it being average, its main issue is the price. If this thing was 45k, I'd forgive nearly everything.
My half baked summary:
- Looks like a Toyota, thats fine, its not horrib,e
- Interior / Dash is horrible. SOOOOO much piano back, like every door and the centre console.
- Interior feels plasticy, like the RAV4 right next to it felt tougher and cohesive.
- Stupid drive selector is really dinky and makes loud spring noises.
- Instrument screen looks like a 20 year old portable DVD player.
- Rear seat is low, like you get in the back of a Model 3, knees up. but plenty of room between rear and front seat, just cant get feet under the front seats.
- Why do they insist on a power button?
-
- Extra bonus points for a regular indicator stalk on the correct side and a wiper stalk however.
- Didn't drive it, but almost guarantee the suspension is more suited to daily driving that a Model Y!
Beside it being average, its main issue is the price. If this thing was 45k, I'd forgive nearly everything.
Wow that photo brought me instant memories of the 1950s built Macchi jet trainer cockpit.Look what I found when driving past the local Toyota dealer.
My half baked summary:
- Looks like a Toyota, thats fine, its not horrib,e
- Interior / Dash is horrible. SOOOOO much piano back, like every door and the centre console.
- Interior feels plasticy, like the RAV4 right next to it felt tougher and cohesive.
- Stupid drive selector is really dinky and makes loud spring noises.
- Instrument screen looks like a 20 year old portable DVD player.
- Rear seat is low, like you get in the back of a Model 3, knees up. but plenty of room between rear and front seat, just cant get feet under the front seats.
- Why do they insist on a power button?
-
- Extra bonus points for a regular indicator stalk on the correct side and a wiper stalk however.
- Didn't drive it, but almost guarantee the suspension is more suited to daily driving that a Model Y!
Beside it being average, its main issue is the price. If this thing was 45k, I'd forgive nearly everything.
View attachment 1032105
WAY too busy.
This interior probably might have looked cool to someone in the 1990s. The issue with a lot of these legacy manufacturers is that they think - oh you want electric, let us give you a futuristic looking design, 90% of which looks odd and out of place.... This thing isn't any different. I'd personally like to meet these people who make these oddball business decisions and then think that they will continue to succeed especially when your competition is a Tesla at a similar price point.Look what I found when driving past the local Toyota dealer.
My half baked summary:
- Looks like a Toyota, thats fine, its not horrib,e
- Interior / Dash is horrible. SOOOOO much piano back, like every door and the centre console.
- Interior feels plasticy, like the RAV4 right next to it felt tougher and cohesive.
- Stupid drive selector is really dinky and makes loud spring noises.
- Instrument screen looks like a 20 year old portable DVD player.
- Rear seat is low, like you get in the back of a Model 3, knees up. but plenty of room between rear and front seat, just cant get feet under the front seats.
- Why do they insist on a power button?
-
- Extra bonus points for a regular indicator stalk on the correct side and a wiper stalk however.
- Didn't drive it, but almost guarantee the suspension is more suited to daily driving that a Model Y!
Beside it being average, its main issue is the price. If this thing was 45k, I'd forgive nearly everything.
View attachment 1032105
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Interesting… did you ask the dealer to comment on Sean Hanley’s (VP of sales at Toyota Australia) statement that he thinks battery EVs are “impractical for the vast majority of Australian motorists”? Do they agree with that statement, and hence, would they advise you to not buy this car?
lol! now wouldn't that be something. They are understandably scared because they won't have a role to play in the EV game then, we can't blame them to trying to create this narrative. But I personally think we are seeing a sad demise of Toyota unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat and release 5+ EVs in the next 6 months which are production ready and not just concepts.
My vague recollection was that Nissan had a service where they would send someone out to your house to assess feasibility for installing a charger, and if deemed suitable, you could then get one installed for a fairly hefty price. We declined that offer, said we already had a powerpoint in the garage and we’d just use that and the supplied mobile charger.
I think their concern was to verify that people had the ability to charge the car they were about to buy, or at least demonstrated an understanding of what was required. They didn’t want someone to buy a LEAF then come back a week later complaining that it stopped working
.You gotta remember this was 2014, when there were fewer than 500 battery EVs registered in the entire state. It was all very new.
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