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Very frustrated with software limited charging

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I have a back-up 30kw generator; when that generator runs the LED bulbs in the house often flicker and dimmer switches are basically useless if they're not full on but our Model S has continued to charge without dialing down on all FW versions. When power has gone out the car stops charging but has re-started when the generator kicked on automatically; even our AC systems seem to struggle more with power fluctuations than the car does.

@NigelM, You're probably aware, but this is most likely from the surge power needed for high demand loads. Generators do not spin up to demand instantly, and there is a relatively large amount of time between demand and the generator meeting the demand. Many LED bulbs and dimmers won't run when the voltage or frequency drops out of range, which will often happen when something large tries to kick on while on generator power (refrigerator, A/C unit, etc). The Model S ramps up current draw at a rate that most generators could easily keep up with, instead of a quick surge to full power.

That said... I'm surprised the Model S doesn't flip out in this situation. My guess is you're not maxing out the charge current. (40 or 80A)
 
IF the UMC had been properly engineered, this thread wouldn't exist. If you disagree, then I have nothing more to say to you.

So now it's not the FW, but the UMC that is the problem?

I have the same UMC you do. I've charged at probably 70 to 100 different locations using it and J1772 at various points over two years, and the car has only backed a few times: memorable ones were when a bad ballast in a high bay fluorescent fixture caused enough of a fluctuation that the car was convinced there was the danger of an arc-fault and another time when the wiring was a bit questionable (long run on an undersized wire).
 
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@NigelM, You're probably aware, but this is most likely from the surge power needed for high demand loads. Generators do not spin up to demand instantly, and there is a relatively large amount of time between demand and the generator meeting the demand. Many LED bulbs and dimmers won't run when the voltage or frequency drops out of range, which will often happen when something large tries to kick on while on generator power (refrigerator, A/C unit, etc). The Model S ramps up current draw at a rate that most generators could easily keep up with, instead of a quick surge to full power.

That said... I'm surprised the Model S doesn't flip out in this situation. My guess is you're not maxing out the charge current. (40 or 80A)

Thanks for the note. Yes, we have 3 AC units and 100% LED lighting so I recognize the issue but you make a good comparison to the Model S ramp. I'm not an expert on generators but always believed that the output wasn't very 'clean' so I was surprised that Model S charged at 80A with no problem (=relevance to this thread) and that's happened maybe 5 or 6 times total over the last 2 years (so different FW versions).
 
@NigelM, You're probably aware, but this is most likely from the surge power needed for high demand loads. Generators do not spin up to demand instantly, and there is a relatively large amount of time between demand and the generator meeting the demand. Many LED bulbs and dimmers won't run when the voltage or frequency drops out of range, which will often happen when something large tries to kick on while on generator power (refrigerator, A/C unit, etc). The Model S ramps up current draw at a rate that most generators could easily keep up with, instead of a quick surge to full power.

That said... I'm surprised the Model S doesn't flip out in this situation. My guess is you're not maxing out the charge current. (40 or 80A)

I have a 25 kW genset at home, and have charged at the full 40A while the rest of the home loads were running (A/C, etc.). The HPWC isn't on the generator panel so I can't test it, but in my case the car didn't back down on the genset.

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Thanks for the note. Yes, we have 3 AC units and 100% LED lighting so I recognize the issue but you make a good comparison to the Model S ramp. I'm not an expert on generators but always believed that the output wasn't very 'clean' so I was surprised that Model S charged at 80A with no problem (=relevance to this thread) and that's happened maybe 5 or 6 times total over the last 2 years (so different FW versions).

When the load significantly jumps on a generator, the frequency goes out of spec (< 60 Hz) for a short bit until the engine can adjust - the generator slows the engine down for a fraction of a second. This isn't what the car is looking at - and in a good switching power supply, the frequency disruption for a short period of time won't cause any problems (and really won't even be seen). Now, if the genset is underpowered for the load applied, you start to see a significant voltage disruption, but I've seen that cause an outright error in charging where the Tesla goes to red-ring, rather than backs off.

The car is looking for a voltage / resistance disruption signature similar to that of an AFCI.
 
So now it's not the FW, but the UMC that is the problem?

I have the same UMC you do. I've charged at probably 70 to 100 different locations using it and J1772 at various points over two years, and the car has only backed a few times: memorable ones were when a bad ballast in a high bay fluorescent fixture caused enough of a fluctuation that the car was convinced there was the danger of an arc-fault and another time when the wiring was a bit questionable (long run on an undersized wire).
You know exactly what I mean. It really doesn't help by making excuses for Tesla. Google melted UMC and after that, go measure the pins on the adapter end. They are the main issue, when the UMC is run on the ragged edge in sunny hot weather. Tesla decided to use tougher plastic on the adapter side(the adapters weren't where the melting started, but it was the cheapest, quickest change. Together with limiting charging to 30A, that was the solution.

I should probably also mention that the few UMC's where the owner cut the adapter off, and replaced with just a 14-50 male plug, have had absolutely no melting, and ran much cooler as compared with a Flir. That isn't just a coincidence. My guess the reason Tesla didn't do this is it gives no option for 120V charging without using Frankenstein adapters.
 
So now it's not the FW, but the UMC that is the problem?

I have the same UMC you do. I've charged at probably 70 to 100 different locations using it and J1772 at various points over two years, and the car has only backed a few times: memorable ones were when a bad ballast in a high bay fluorescent fixture caused enough of a fluctuation that the car was convinced there was the danger of an arc-fault and another time when the wiring was a bit questionable (long run on an undersized wire).
I forgot to mention that you are a very knowledgable guy, but I can't help but wonder one thing. You harp on everyone about electrical safety, but Tesla gets a pass? They can design and sell a product that works on the very cutting edge of safety(and sometimes crossing over into very unsafe territory, and melting), and that is ok to defend? Everyone else has to err on the side of caution except Tesla? I'm sensing a very unusual bias here....
 
I've deliberately stayed out of this thread for a number of reasons (mostly because I suspect I just irritate qwk :) ). But c'mon, give him a break. There is clearly something going on here, something that Tesla has not yet determined as root cause. Nigel has mentioned another owner with similar problems.

Let's give a long-standing Tesla supporter and owner the benefit of the doubt.
 
I forgot to mention that you are a very knowledgable guy, but I can't help but wonder one thing. You harp on everyone about electrical safety, but Tesla gets a pass? They can design and sell a product that works on the very cutting edge of safety(and sometimes crossing over into very unsafe territory, and melting), and that is ok to defend? Everyone else has to err on the side of caution except Tesla? I'm sensing a very unusual bias here....

No bias. You blame a software feature that gives very few other people an issue and demand Tesla remove it. Then you blame the UMC's melted pins.

If you go search for my posts, I didn't give them a pass at all and I said I think the UMC melting problem (I had it twice) was going to be a serious problem. That generated a recall. I then stated that their fix (like you mentioned, above) was a bit questionable and that we'd need to keep looking at how hot these connectors get. The comments about a potential re-design of the UMC also fit into this as a long-term fix.

But do I believe that's the reason your car is backing off? No.

(Edit due to original post being done on a mobile phone with fingers way too fat.)
 
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Let's give a long-standing Tesla supporter and owner the benefit of the doubt.

I would, if there would be a dialogue about solving the problem instead of demand for Tesla to remove the safety feature with little willingness to track down the issue. As I've said up-thread, the fact that this charging fall-back is not more widespread points to an environment-specific problem or some failure of the gear in the car. Some people are having success after their master charger is replaced; others have had to narrow it down to a misbehaving appliance, or an overloaded transformer.
 
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I've deliberately stayed out of this thread for a number of reasons (mostly because I suspect I just irritate qwk :) ). But c'mon, give him a break. There is clearly something going on here, something that Tesla has not yet determined as root cause. Nigel has mentioned another owner with similar problems.

Let's give a long-standing Tesla supporter and owner the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks Bonnie! I have no doubt that Tesla is going to solve this issue
 
I would, if there would be a dialogue about solving the problem instead of demand for Tesla to remove the safety feature with little willingness to track down the issue. As I've said up-thread, the fact that this charging fall-back is not more widespread points to an environment-specific problem or some failure of the gear in the car. Some people are having success after their master charger is replaced; others have had to narrow it down to a misbehaving appliance, or an overloaded transformer.

you keep saying that the OP demanded they remove a safety feature when in fact he hasn't. He simply asked to have working charging for his car.

They can keep the safety feature and add an override interface/capability.

They can keep the safety feature as is for the fleet and allow this one car to be on a different firmware that has the safety feature at a different threshold for his car.

They can keep the safety feature and improve it so that it doesn't trip as much but is just as safe

They can keep the safety feature and replace parts on his car (if his car is somehow different enough that the general threshold doesn't apply)

They can keep the safety feature and replace his UMC (if the UMC is an issue)


I've seen plenty of suggestions on how to fix the issue but I don't agree with you saying he demands they remove the safety feature. I don't get the impression that he wants to exert his will on other car owners. I just get the impression that he wants his car to be usable.
 
you keep saying that the OP demanded they remove a safety feature when in fact he hasn't. He simply asked to have working charging for his car.

They can keep the safety feature and add an override interface/capability.

They can keep the safety feature as is for the fleet and allow this one car to be on a different firmware that has the safety feature at a different threshold for his car.

They can keep the safety feature and improve it so that it doesn't trip as much but is just as safe

They can keep the safety feature and replace parts on his car (if his car is somehow different enough that the general threshold doesn't apply)

They can keep the safety feature and replace his UMC (if the UMC is an issue)


I've seen plenty of suggestions on how to fix the issue but I don't agree with you saying he demands they remove the safety feature. I don't get the impression that he wants to exert his will on other car owners. I just get the impression that he wants his car to be usable.
Thanks! You are right, I don't care how it's done, just so it's done. I guess its hard to understand this problem for others when their car is charging fine.

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Forgive me if this was already asked, but did OP have an electrician check his wiring and power supply for anomalies? That would seem to be the logical thing to do.

You do realize that this car datalogs, right?
 
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In the first page, he says that the "entire problem" is Tesla's feature to limit charging current when it detects a signature that would indicate an arc fault:

The car dealt with 10kw charging for hours on end on that outlet , for a period of two years just fine. There is no need to find any fine spot. Tesla's choice to limit charging current after the fact is the entire problem.

It would be extremely unwise for Tesla to have one specific car on a special firmware just because of an environmental problem that exists either in his power supply or his car.
It would be extremely unwise for Tesla to permit an override of a safety device (the NEC doesn't list an exception to the AFCI breaker rule just because an owner has a misbehaving appliance).

Yes, Tesla *could* improve the safety feature, but they have to keep it just as safe. However, the fact that most owners are not having this problem points to an issue in qwk's environment -- a bad charger in the car, a misbehaving appliance on the grid, a bad transformer. He reports this happens in many different places, and I'd be willing to bet that it's something internal to the car. He mentions the poorly-designed UMC being the primary source of the issue, yet he's had the UMC replaced, and many of us use the very same UMC models in the same summer heat without the resulting back-down in current. I do concede that many more people have suffered the melting-pins problem, but I haven't seen many reports of that post-adapter-recall.

So when people have stated that they believe it could be a problem in the car, he had this to say:
See my long winded post. There is nothing wrong with the car, it's all firmware.
I'm not willing to believe that. qwk believes it's "all firmware" because he wants them to rip the feature out of the car or give him the ability to override a safety feature that is detecting an arc-fault signature. There is a problem somewhere in his environment, or we'd all be complaining about unnecessary downshifting in current.

The truth is that most cars are charging just fine, without a problem, in the same situations as qwk's. I understand the problem, I really do, as I've seen my car downshift the charging current due to a misbehaving appliance -- it's just that he's not following the logic in following through to identifying and repairing the root cause of the problem instead of eliminating the symptom. He has said he wants Tesla to remove / override the safety checks in the system for him. My argument is that he needs, with Tesla's help, to find the root cause here - because if the problem was indeed "all firmware", many more of us would be experiencing it. Like qwk, I charge in many different situations, at different campgrounds, in the heat of the day, with the same UMC model that he does. So what's the difference between his experience and mine? His environment - his specific car, or his specific locations.

Years ago, I worked in an IT organization that installed some software to test vulnerabilities in their IT systems. It crawled through systems and used some automated methods to try and identify security faults. When that software was turned on and let loose, it caused crashes of 5 major database systems that brought the company to a screeching halt. So how do you fix that? Do you just say "well, just don't scan then"? Or do you fix the underlying vulnerability that made the system crash in the first place?
 
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For what it is worth, and somewhat anecdotal, but an associate told me recently that his Sig model S recently started charging at 30A on his home UMC, where it used to do 40A charging all along. I am not sure if the change coincided with a recent firmware update, or some other cause (such as changes with his power characteristics.)

[ Yes, this thread needs more factual data, not just stories, but... ]