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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software
- Thread starter hockeythug
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- Energy Environment Policy
beeeerock
Active Member
I think you've missed my point... I'm not saying they have any moral high ground or legal justification... or that it's "mere politics". I'm saying that there are plenty of other nasty sources that have been given a free pass for years and years. That has to stop and this scandal should prompt some REAL action, not the lip service that's gone before.
I'm hardly a VW fan, but when it was time to purchase a vehicle previously, they had the offering that best met my needs and environmental values. Tesla wasn't an option then and I hardly had the equipment to do my own emissions testing before purchase. Prior to my Tesla, MB had the best option and went with their diesel. We make the best decisions with the information we have available at the time - I won't apologize for that.
Whoah, nice try, but please don't make an argument by carefully choosing and editing your quotes. If you care to review the post to which you referred, you'll note that it actually said "As was stated upthread... VW's biggest sin was getting caught <etc>". Context is everything and I was *clearly* referring to a previous post by *SOMEONE ELSE* who made a statement to that effect. That means, to me, that the car companies are all guilty of something and VW is the one who's being made an example of today.jgs said:
In addition, New York and other state attorneys general are forming a group to probe the scandal, a spokesman for New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman said. The probe would focus on potential violations of environmental and consumer fraud laws, the spokesman said.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/usa-volkswagen-idINKCN0RM07420150922
RT
http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/usa-volkswagen-idINKCN0RM07420150922
RT
beeeerock
Active Member
Actually, my car does not emit any of those things, but my wife's does. But as for confusion, unless you can stand with me and smell what I've smelled, I don't think there is much point in arguing about it. We might as well argue whether it was bean fart or a turkey fart we smelled in the elevator - LOL :biggrin:Actually no confusion. Your car (along with millions of others does emit nitrous oxide (N2O) as well as the mono-nitrogen oxides (NO and NO2).
Here's the evidence (which incidentally doubles as a cure for insomnia :wink
cschock
Member
Anybody want to buy a 2009 Jetta TDI? Only 40K miles... oh my word my wife is PISSED at VW. Considering I've owned two Audi's and the VW as the last three cars prior to Tesla and was considering an eGolf to replace the Jetta, they are going to lose a longstanding customer here. I can't imagine it won't be many more, especially since I am pretty sure a lot of people are going to eat some significant "depreciation" losses due to this. Even with class action suits, I doubt anyone recoups much of the loss either. Not fun, especially if we get to the point where you can't even renew the license on these cars in CA due to non-compliance (and that could be in a few weeks or a month for MANY people.)
jgs
Active Member
Although you didn't originate the quote, you were associating yourself with it, so I don't think I grossly misrepresented your meaning. And indeed, you seem to be doubling down on the idea that we should cut VW a bit of a break because everyone does it. (This is what your final sentence above suggests to me.) My response to that is that if everyone does it, fine, prove it and string them all up, in a nice straight row.
But in fact, I would be surprised if every car company had an equally corrupt culture. Certainly in my own industry, having been associated with several companies in the same industry over the course of my career, I've seen that different companies choose to do business in very different ways. So absent proof, or at least convincing evidence, I'm not willing to accept that everyone does it. And if everyone doesn't do it, that's all the more reason to take strong enforcement action, because in addition to the direct harm caused by violating the law, VW gained what amounts to an unfair competitive advantage by doing so.
I think that in some places "negligent homicide" would be a valid charge. They knew what the outcome would be, and knowingly did it anyway.
Electricfan
Active Member
I was able to build a TDI clean diesel. http://www.vw.com/models/jetta/trims/2016/tdi-s-trim/edit/tab/summary/exterior-color/7h7h/
NigelM
Recovering Member
Take your Tesla key fob and give it to your wife. ;-)
Old marketing site:
Frequently Asked Clean Diesel Questions - VW TDI - VW.com
It appears like they push off the claims by basically saying "Well, the EPA approved it, so who are we to argue?"
Frequently Asked Clean Diesel Questions - VW TDI - VW.com
It appears like they push off the claims by basically saying "Well, the EPA approved it, so who are we to argue?"
beeeerock
Active Member
From my cold, dead hand...
and no smiley after that one because I'm completely serious! :biggrin:
jgs said:
Well, you inferred incorrectly. I've also stated that I think the executives responsible should be put in front of a firing squad. That would seem to state my position clearly enough.
It's more about my unwavering cynicism in the automotive industry in general. Yesterday it was air bags, it was ignition switches the week before... there isn't a week that goes by where we don't hear about something grossly wrong with one car or another. To make the news more interesting to the jaded audience, the story varies by how quickly and how horrifically we'll die from the problem. In reality, the VW issue is quite mundane in that respect as it'll take years to develop the associated illnesses, which a good lawyer will attribute to the neighbour's lawnmower exhaust. The ignition switch is more interesting as it involves horrific crashes... even the shrapnel from the faulty airbags makes good reading...
It seems grossly hypocritical to talk about how many people will die from TDI exhaust... while making the argument from beside an idling Powerstroke with a camper on the back. Our lungs can't discern between compliant and non-compliant NOx.
Unfortunately I don't share your optimism that corruption in the industry is isolated and not the rule. After all, the planet is still driving ICE cars and that has to be confirmation that they'll do whatever makes the most money, rather than what is right. If emissions numbers of any kind didn't exist, would we be able to breathe at all? It takes laws to make them compliant and build cars that aren't quite as profitable... which largely explains why EV's aren't everywhere today.
Well, I bought a used gasoline Audi A3 a few years back, but only after driving a new TDI. There however was significant debate, but In the end it came down to finances. Unfortunately the future debate people will have between choosing a more environmentally friendly option or similar gas vehcile (for much less money) has been completely undermined. People now will just say "well its all a bunch of hogwash anyhow" might as well get whatever".
This is a systemic world-wide failure. Government's and their organizations, once again failed to protect the human race against corporate greed.
"Picture a bright blue ball, just spinning, spinnin free,
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky,
Brush in some clouds and sea,
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space,
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace
Is the human face,
But afraid we may lay our home to waste.
john perry barlow
This is a systemic world-wide failure. Government's and their organizations, once again failed to protect the human race against corporate greed.
"Picture a bright blue ball, just spinning, spinnin free,
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky,
Brush in some clouds and sea,
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space,
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace
Is the human face,
But afraid we may lay our home to waste.
john perry barlow
Last edited by a moderator:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
There has been discussion about this at length up thread about what distinguishes VW with the other cases. In the ignition and airbag cases, the companies involved did not set out to build an ignition switch or airbag to kill people. Rather they covered up a mistake they made. In VW's case they had the full intent to defraud, it was not just a cover up of a mistake.
I don't think people complaining have a diesel powered pickup that they use to commute. In fact, the people who do have one of those would be the type to brush something like this off. So I'm not sure how hypocrisy comes into play here.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Couple of themes I want to build on, AR's quote being one of them.
I see the consequences of this, assuming that this is restricted to VW and the 2.0 TDI engines, to start looking a lot like what AnxietyRanger is describing here. Find a way to tie this back to some individuals and have them carry that burden with some prison time. This will help significantly to be able to tie this breach of trust back to individuals instead of a brand / label / company. It's too impersonal otherwise.
Much as GM was too big to fail during the '08 crisis, I expect VW is too big to fail in Germany. But I'm with the earlier poster (can't find the post now) going with VW is bankrupt within 2 years.
Sources of new liabilities that VW has today that they didn't have a week ago:
- US EPA for $37,500 per vehicle sold (500k vehicles - $18B)
- Violating customs declarations - somebody mentioned that.
- Various US states for clean air act (seems like double dipping, so maybe they need a different route)
- Fraud claims by governments
- Other governments around the world and fines associated with their corresponding Clean Air Act / vehicle emissions standards (and fines associated with intentionally violating). As others have linked, VW has fessed up to 11M vehicles affected, not just the 500k in the USA.
- Owners of the vehicles that may suddenly find them to be unregisterable
- VW dealership owners that aren't being supplied a sellable product per their contract
- Shareholders looking to recoup some of their losses of the last few days.
- what have I missed? No way this is all of it.
- US and possibly worldwide loss of brand value (and ultimately consumer interest in buying the car). I see this as big, but I accept that others may see this as a small impact and negligible next to the size of the company.
The way I see it, the $18B US fine is the easily calculated number - it's not the upper limit of what VW has coming, it's more like the bare minimum if they get off easy.
I add all that up, and what I see is a company that will wobble for a time, and will finally declare bankruptcy and put all of those claimants together with a bankruptcy court to divvy up whatever there is of value in the company.
AND it will be a managed bankruptcy with a new VW 2.0 (3.0, 4.0 - whatever they're up to
) coming out the other side without these liabilities hanging over the company. The German government will step in to bring VW out of bankruptcy with the car building and skill/resource assets intact so that VW continues as a going concern, but without all of these liabilities hanging over the company. It MAY be that VW really does have the assets to handle all of these liabilities and remain a robust car manufacturer. The kinds of savings, or ability to share out the financial pain to other people, offered by bankruptcy will be too enticing not to take anyway.
The end result I expect to see will be a smaller VW, maybe with pieces sold off that will be worth something like their untouched market cap, that is mostly owned by the German government, at least for awhile. A lot like what happened with GM in the US just a few years ago. VW factories and design centers will still be building and selling cars - but the ownership interests of the company are about to get realigned in a major way.
From an investing perspective, I'd be skeptical about shorting the company. When the investment is this obvious, I figure the "smart money" already owns the position. And there is a question of timing - being right on the direction but wrong on the timing can still mean losing money. I won't be investing in VW on either side.
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This is a critical distinction - that VW acted with intent. I don't have the science, but even if its slow, big increases in airborne pollutants also carries with it loss of life. It's just that the causation in any one individual case is never going to be as clear as a single failing ignition switch. As a layperson, it looks to me like the loss of life and other related societal medical expenses is much higher associated this choice and coverup, than with the incompetence and coverup we've seen by others.
And it's different from other recalls because those were incompetent and covered up - this was intentional and covered up. There were individual contributors that wrote the code (software engineers). There were individuals that validated the code worked correctly. There were front line managers overseeing the work. There were architects and designers building around this. There were marketing people touting the benefits and advertising the seemingly miraculous results accomplished by the technical people at VW. There were executives who thought this sounded better than the alternative and supported it through 7 model years.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It doesn't surprise me when something like this is revealed. What surprises me is when large corporations play by the rules. The problem is not the breaking of the rules, it's the lack of personal accountability. Corporate accountability means practically nothing and after the 2008 financial crisis we have proven that not only do personal wrongdoers not get punished, they get rewarded.
Yet we build more and more prisons to put people with addictions behind bars. What an odd creature we are. The only exception seems to be FIFA, which is odd in itself. You can mess with our financial institutions, livelihoods and health, and not do hard time, but don't dare mess with our games or we will put you behind bars.
I bet the higher ups at VW were kicking themselves for not being able to do over the air updates to the software. They could have corrected the problem during the investigation, then sent another update to reinstate it later. Problem solved. Once again Tesla leads the pack.
Yet we build more and more prisons to put people with addictions behind bars. What an odd creature we are. The only exception seems to be FIFA, which is odd in itself. You can mess with our financial institutions, livelihoods and health, and not do hard time, but don't dare mess with our games or we will put you behind bars.
I bet the higher ups at VW were kicking themselves for not being able to do over the air updates to the software. They could have corrected the problem during the investigation, then sent another update to reinstate it later. Problem solved. Once again Tesla leads the pack.
thegruf
Active Member
and this is what happens when you deliberately defraud ...
Maybe VW executives might need to be worried about more than their share value.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stewart-parnell-us-peanut-company-boss-jailed-for-28-years-over-salmonella-outbreak-blamed-for-10511973.html
Maybe VW executives might need to be worried about more than their share value.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stewart-parnell-us-peanut-company-boss-jailed-for-28-years-over-salmonella-outbreak-blamed-for-10511973.html
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Great post!
This is definitely a cultural phenomenon that has its roots in the financial industry where, as you point out, you get rewarded instead of punished even when you do obvious, blatant frauds and has spread to other industries since.
Over on Gas2, they are reporting that the TDi models were also eligible for a $1,300 green car tax credit--true?
NigelM
Recovering Member
Maybe add:
- Service/recall costs already estimated at ~$7bn.
- Class action for false advertising and marketing.
- Class action for reduced resale value of affected cars (or even for reduced resale value of VW branded cars)
- Repurchase of unsaleable vehicles
AND it will be a managed bankruptcy with a new VW 2.0 (3.0, 4.0 - whatever they're up to
I don't think that VW has ever declared bankruptcy. As for a potential bailout it is partially owned (12.7%) by the German State of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony). There are some choice brands in the group such as Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche as well as some specialists such as Ducati, Scania, MAN and others.
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